Feminist Horror (Part 1)

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hey, guys. Welcome to Demon Toast. This is the podcast of Death Wish Poetry magazine, where we discuss gothic and horrific literature. I'm your host, King Loki, and with me are my co hosts, Erica Poet, Flexual and Adrian Painter, intellectual mad woman. What's up? How you guys doing? [00:00:22] Speaker B: Peachy keen as always. [00:00:24] Speaker A: So, yeah, we're here to talk about feminist horror, or at least start it. So, yeah, Adrian just pulled a knife on me, so I'm gonna keep the kayfabe to a minute. [00:00:36] Speaker B: Yeah, it's my vampire hunting knife that's made out of like an iron steak from a railroad spike. [00:00:42] Speaker A: So, you know, Ca Ca isn't here, but she was going to be here and so was Luca. Luca is trans, of course, but assigned female at birth is a heck of a perspective to have. So, you know, hopefully we'll see them on the next episode when we discuss this also. But I'm so happ happy that you guys are here. So right at the start, I'm just gonna go ahead and say for. For anyone who's listening, that the word feminist triggers certain fragile individuals. Chances are, if you think that women should have the same rights as men, you're already a female, a feminist, and [00:01:13] Speaker B: hard carrying [00:01:15] Speaker A: intersectional revolution will benefit everyone. So I don't want to hear it. You know who you are. So I wrote out this. This definition for feminist horror, right? A horror subgenre exploring themes pertaining to women and relating to gender roles, male or female, such as agency abuse, objectification, mental health, motherhood, toxic masculinity and societal pressure can be combined with other subgenres as women are a significant part of the human experience. Folk horror, fairy tale horror and monster movies all dovetail nicely. In fact, the monstrous feminine is an important fixture in feminist horror. And I did say male and female because gender norms are. Well, let's just say that men aren't harmed by them as much as women are. However, men are constrained by them, which is how you get things like toxic masculinity, which we will talk about. So, guys, what do you. What thoughts do you have on what I just said about, you know, feminist horror? [00:02:17] Speaker C: Distinct definition, I think, and a very thoughtful thing to mention there at the end. The patriarchy definitely affects everybody and that's something that needs to be addressed more than people think, right? [00:02:31] Speaker A: I mean, like, I'm a CIS male, right? Like I'm never going to know the horrors of childbirth. I am never going to suffer as a woman in a marriage, right? Not that that marriage is always harmful for women, but it can be and often is right. Especially when you rush into it without knowing what you're doing. You know, like, again, CIS male engaged to a man. So that's not my experience, but there are certain societal pressures that I face because men are expected to behave a certain way. They're not expected to wear eyeliner or be emotional or talk about feminism. So, like, you know, when you do these things and you're bisexual, people in your family and around you are going to say things and you're going to have to deal with it, you know, and you could suffer certain societal and social, well, consequences for that. So I don't want to hear that this stuff doesn't hurt men, because it does, you know? But we're not here to talk about men, are we? [00:03:24] Speaker B: Not today, no. [00:03:26] Speaker A: So, obviously, in that definition, I had several quadrants of feminist horror, right? Agency abuse, societal pressure, mental health, motherhood, toxic masculinity, and of course, objectification. These are all things that women face day to day and as such, are key components of feminist horror. Shall we start with objectification? [00:03:49] Speaker B: Let's start with objectification. Let's jump right in. [00:03:52] Speaker A: I mean, why not, right? I mean, one of the movies on our watch list was the Substance. [00:03:56] Speaker C: I think that is one of the best ones to start with because it definitely paints the clearest picture, I would say, of what objectification can look like for women a lot of the time. [00:04:10] Speaker B: A hundred percent. [00:04:12] Speaker A: Right. Okay. That's Mike. Yeah. So the Substance is, of course, a movie about Demi Moore. She's an aging model, exercise guru. Guru on the tv. She loses her show because she's, you know, crossed the age of 30, right. In the world of TV. And, well, she's devastated. She doesn't know what to do with herself. So what does she do? She finds some secret thing that they give to stars that'll make you young again. Except there's a catch. You inject yourself with this thing that comes in a creepy box and another you crawls out and that you is not you. That it's a younger, sexier version of you that goes out and lives your life for a week and then has to switch back. And, like, what is. What does the young Demi Moore do, played by Margaret Qualley. [00:04:52] Speaker B: Margaret Qualley, who is the daughter of Andie MacDowell, who we will, like, talk about later as well, probably. Well, she's in Ready or Not, another perfect movie. [00:05:04] Speaker A: So, yeah. So young Demi Moore goes and gets her show back, and she's a new person. She's sue and she's hot. She's sexy. And we see how the TV producer talks about her and looks at her. You're perfect. You're wondering, wonderful. Why? Because she has perfect legs, perfect face, is under the age of 25 perhaps. Right. You know, and like Demi Moore watching herself on TV after, after the fact is kind of disgusted because, like, that should be her up there. And she just starts eating and gorging herself. And I mean, I don't want to give the whole movie away, but, you know, considering that Demi Moore's entire life is defined by what she does on TV and how people see her, she is. I mean, objectification doesn't even cover it, Right? [00:05:47] Speaker B: Right. Well, she has this thing where she literally doesn't think that she has any purpose or usefulness. There's a moment in the film where she almost starts to live her own life outside of sue and then decides, you know, like, not to go on this date with someone that she knew. Like, instead she sits down and she decides to use warfare, like food is warfare, to punish the parts of herself that she likes, which is Sue. It's very, it's very interesting. But all of her self worth is wrapped up in how she looks and seeing herself, but not herself as this, you know, younger, beautiful, more perfect thing. Like she thinks. And it's like a whole thing she literally thinks. It's the only part of herself that she likes and it's the only part of herself that she thinks has value because that's how everyone treats her. [00:06:53] Speaker C: I definitely agree. It's an interesting watch because it's so in your face with like this deep rooted feeling of like chasing idealism that comes from that outside source. It feels almost inescapable. Like the pressures that she's under from the people that surround her in her personal life and in her work life to like meet these expectations and perform. And then when she's told that she, like that, she's like, hit that wall, so to say, and she seeks out Sue. It's like, like literally that separation of self almost when you're trying to achieve those unattainable pieces. Like you're working on something that you can't quite reach and you're just watching from an outsider's perspective almost because there's that disconnect within you. [00:07:48] Speaker A: Talk about, talk about the food, right? Yeah. [00:07:52] Speaker B: Okay. From the moment the movie starts, they treat food like you're watching Dennis Quaid eat these shrimp and he's got sauce on his face. It's so, it's. It's so disgusting. Like you watch him Chew. And she's watching him chew, and she's horrified because, one, she, you know, she's not allowed to eat like that. Like, she can't just, you know, eat something. And two, it's horrifying because he's gross. And her entire self worth is wrapped up in what she does for this guy, and he's just stuffing his face. There's also the moment where she decides to wage war on Sue. And the best way to do that for her, she takes this cookbook and she starts making the grossest, most disgusting food. Like, it is absolutely, like, horrific. The food and the way food is treated in this movie is honestly one of the scariest things in the movie for me. [00:08:58] Speaker A: See, that's. That's a key point because, like, when I was watching it, I was just sort of, like, enwrapped in it. And I like morbid stuff. I like when movies get gross. That was horrific for me because I'm a man, if I want to gorge myself, I will. You know, I don't have to watch my waist. No one cares. Like, really, like, if I have a beer belly. That's a dad bod, Right? But, like, when I was talking to Adrian, she was like, I don't know if this is a feminist movie. This was disgusting. And I was like, but was it horrific? You know, and it is. [00:09:24] Speaker B: Yes, 100%. [00:09:26] Speaker C: So many women, food is, like, this big, scary thing, whether they're aware of it or not. Like, for me, it wasn't something that I was aware of until I was significantly older because I was always a little bit heavier than most of the other women in my family. [00:09:43] Speaker A: Interesting. [00:09:44] Speaker C: But that was largely because I was leading, like, a sedentary lifestyle. But I was no stranger to, like, subtle comments about my weight or how much I was eating and that I needed to be aware of it so I wouldn't put on more weight because I was already kind of big. And that's harmful, right? Just kind of inherently. But because you hear these things or because you see how other women look, you develop aversions sometimes, or you're overly aware of what you are and aren't putting into your body. And it can go either way, Right. There's so many extremes on this scale, but to me, that felt a little bit like acknowledging that fear in a lot of women and also being like, food doesn't have to be this point of contention. It can do other things, right? Like, yes, it can be scary sometimes. You might not want to do it, but you can also use it as a Point, like as a form of power, it's supposed to be nourishment. Yes, absolutely. And she's still engaging in like scary and harmful behaviors with how she's consuming her food. But I feel like to some degree, it does also open the floor to discussion about like, nourishing your body in more mindful ways. [00:11:04] Speaker A: Pushing your body in more mindful ways, huh? Yeah, it's. [00:11:08] Speaker C: It's not being so frightful of like what other people have to say about what you're consuming. Because at this point, she doesn't care what sue has to say about what she's eating. [00:11:18] Speaker A: Right. [00:11:19] Speaker B: She's literally trying to punish her with it. [00:11:23] Speaker A: So it's. Her entire, entire life is being a sex object. Right. And getting back to the point of objectification. Like her job is being lusted after by the men who watch her show, watch her exercise. No one's watching her show to get in shape. [00:11:35] Speaker C: You know, stuff feels retaliatory almost because of that. Like she's rejecting that objectification of her physique. [00:11:46] Speaker A: Exactly. Well, until the end where the sociosy can't. Yeah, we'll get there. When we talk about societal pressure, I think that that would be appropriate. Maybe mental health, but yeah. Which brings me to, you know, the point about a movie I just saw. Adrian's been pushing me to watch this forever. Run, sweetheart, run. This is a movie. Which one of you wants to talk about it? Which one of you wants to introduce it? [00:12:07] Speaker C: This is one I'm not super familiar with, so I'm eager to hear what you have to say. Adrian. [00:12:13] Speaker A: There you go. [00:12:14] Speaker B: Okay. Run, sweetheart, run. I've seen this movie several times. It was kind of unexpected. It's about this woman who is a mom. She is in pre law. She's working for this big time law firm and her boss tells her that she messes up and wants her to have dinner with this guy. That's like how the movie starts. She's smart. She's like. She's actually brilliant. And it starts off with her trying to talk to HR about, you know, inappropriate behavior in the office. And he just kind of brushes her aside. But then he's like, you know, I'll handle it. It's just going to take some time. So she goes on this date and it's very charming and amazing. And then it turns into a horror film. But unlike many, this movie does things I have never seen a film really do, where the first half of it, every time there is violence against our girl. And like, she's amazing. Her name is Cherie in the movie, that's our heroine. And she. They take the camera and, like, the bad guy actually moves the camera so you can't see. See him, like, attacking her and beating her up, right? And all of this kind of stuff. Like, he. He breaks the fourth wall and he smiles at the camera. He's smiling at you. And then moves the camera aside. Because growing up with movies like, I don't know, I spit on your grave or something like that, like, the violence against women, especially in horror movies, is terrible. Like, terrifying. Like. Yes. So having this film actually, like, move the camera aside now. It stops doing that at one point, but it's the point where she starts to try to fight back because he's chasing her all across the city. It's very, very interesting. [00:14:22] Speaker A: So he's played by Euron Greyjoy from Game of Thrones. And the movie quickly establishes that he's not just a monster, he is the specter of the white patriarchy, and he can do anything. So there's this incredible part, and I really should save it for when we get into some of the other subjects. But she. She's. She's running and she's all beat up, right? She tries to go to the police. She gets Adrian. Why does she get arrested? [00:14:45] Speaker B: She goes to these white women, I remember, and they. [00:14:49] Speaker A: They don't want to listen to anything she says. She's just a crazy, hysterical woman in a dress with her makeup running, you know, like they don't care. And Euron Greyjoy shows up, and he could do anything. The cops just let him walk in. He can. He can break the fourth wall. He could do anything. Because, I mean, you can run, you can cry rape, but at the end of the day, the cards are stacked against you. It's an allegorical movie. And there's a lot of things I really like about it, like when it comes to objectification, like, she finds out that her boss has been feeding women to this creature, this nameless beast, and it enables the patriarchy, right? And, you know, it's almost like, get out in a way. But what I really like about it is that she starts to. And we'll talk about agency later, but she starts to get her agency where. Goes through, I think, four costume changes in the movie. She goes for. She's wearing the sexy dress where she's, you know, she's offering herself in a very like, oh, I'm here. I'm the pretty one. I'm here to meet you. I'm here to have this business lunch with you. Wow. You're so charming and dreamy. And then she's wearing a domestic house. A domestic house dress when she goes to her boss's house and he brings her, like, a dress, like, here, wear this. You're all bloody. She's wearing, I think, a tracksuit. When she's trying to survive, she's lost all feminine, all of the sort of cultural trappings of feminism. And then by the end of the movie, when she starts to take her. Her agency and life back, she's wearing a fucking, like, karate outfit. So, like, clothing is a pretty big, like, you know, creative element in the movie, which is really fun. Right. [00:16:17] Speaker B: This movie she does. I will say my favorite of her costume changes is when she escapes through the church and goes to the club and she steals this outfit that had belonged to one of the women that refused to help her at the beginning. Right? And it's like. It's almost like this combat outfit, but with, like, decked out in, like, this jewelry. And she's got this bandana because one of the major things in the film is that he can smell her blood. [00:16:45] Speaker A: Right. [00:16:46] Speaker B: And she's menstruating. Right. But then she takes that. But we'll get that. Get to there later, because that's more in the agency thing. [00:16:56] Speaker A: It is, it is. While we're talking about objectification, let's talk about Companion. Erika, did you see it? I forget. [00:17:01] Speaker C: I saw most of it. I am almost done. [00:17:04] Speaker A: You want to talk about Companion? You want to tell us about it? [00:17:06] Speaker C: I want to talk about Companion. [00:17:08] Speaker A: Tell me about Companion. [00:17:10] Speaker C: So, like I said, I'm not done, but so far it is so phenomenal. It definitely takes the idea of agency and autonomy to, like, a whole nother level with the rise of, like, AI lately, and the ventures were making into, like, establishing physicality with it almost is frightening. And I would say this movie does a very good job of exploring that concept because we have, like, a fully sentient AI Right? In this robot body that looks and behaves like a woman. [00:17:45] Speaker B: And. [00:17:46] Speaker C: And she has next to no agency over herself until push comes to shove. And she's programmed to do things outside of her nature. [00:17:57] Speaker A: Yes. And she gets a hold of that cell phone that they're using to break her programming and get some agency back herself. I love this movie. This is a. So spoilers. If you haven't seen Companion, this is a robot girl movie. I didn't know that going in, so that really enhanced the experience for me. But everyone's treating her differently. [00:18:16] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:18:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:17] Speaker A: Like, so. Because she's a Sex bot, basically. And she's very pretty. It's a Sophie Hatcher. Yes, Sophie Thatcher. Thank you. Terrible names. It's Sophie Thatcher. Very, very beautiful. Very, very innocent looking, very young looking very demure. Like the one girl's crying. It's so easy, you know, you don't. You don't have any pressure on you at all. And when one of the other men at the house tries to, well, sexually assault her, she doesn't understand what's happening. And he doesn't either when she stabs him. But when she realizes she's a robot girl, she's like, I don't have any rights to them. I'm just, you know, her memories aren't real. I'm a product. Exactly. Her memory, her meet cute of meeting Huey. Who is. Who is her owner. Renter. Yes, her renter. [00:18:56] Speaker B: He's renting her. He doesn't even own her. [00:18:59] Speaker A: It's so gross. [00:18:59] Speaker C: Yeah. Broke boy behavior, by the way. [00:19:02] Speaker A: By the way, that is actually Jack Quaid from the Boys. [00:19:06] Speaker B: This is Dennis Quaid's son. [00:19:07] Speaker A: That is well handed. [00:19:09] Speaker B: And Dennis Quaid's in the substance Nepo. [00:19:11] Speaker A: Babies all around. But yeah, he is, he is a character. At first you think he's a nice guy, but the movie quickly makes it very clear that he isn't. What's fascinating about the movie is, like, you have this great scene where a police officer shows up and she's on the run and that cop isn't gonna help her. He's just not like, you know, it's very tense. She's not allowed to lie. Like, you know, Erica, you mentioned AI, but like, the thing is, like, movies about robot women, women that are robots, they're the perfect woman who could satisfy a man's needs as a machine. Like, that idea was explored in like, you know what, the. The Stepford Wives. [00:19:47] Speaker B: Right, Stepford Wives. That's exactly what I was gonna say. Yeah. [00:19:50] Speaker A: Like, this is like the next step of that, you know, and like, when she gets. When she gets her agency, it's thrilling as fuck. Because she does things you wouldn't expect her to do. But she's running for her life, right? Why wouldn't she? [00:20:01] Speaker C: Why? Because she's pretty well within her means. [00:20:04] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I think this is as good a time as any to switch to talking about toxic masculinity. Do we want to go there? [00:20:12] Speaker B: Huey is like, we keep calling him Huey because he's Huey and the boys. But Jack Quaid is literally the definition of those guys that say, I'm a nice guy. I'm a good guy. When the truth is, if you have to say those things, you're absolutely not. [00:20:28] Speaker A: I've always considered myself a feminist, you know? Yeah. [00:20:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Mm. It shows. [00:20:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Because when. When he's faced with Sophie, Sophie Thatcher, when she's, like, realized and she's got him, he doesn't. He doesn't cry because he betrayed her. He doesn't have a last minute catharsis. No. He acts like an asshole and tries to murder her, tries to rape her, like. And when he gets the upper hand on her in the third act, he's not nice about it. [00:20:53] Speaker B: No. [00:20:53] Speaker A: He's a monster. He burns her hand. [00:20:56] Speaker B: He literally sets her on fire. [00:20:58] Speaker A: This movie's great. [00:20:59] Speaker B: And has her blow her brains out. [00:21:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Which isn't how it ends. [00:21:04] Speaker C: Before we switch off, I do want to say I think he's a very interesting representation of entitlement on top of toxic masculinity, because I feel like those things are really comorbid a lot of the time. He has a really, really bad victim mentality. Right. And he's like, I feel like the world owes me all these things and I have everything that I deserve, so I feel like I have the right to take that out on something or someone that I feel is beneath me in any capacity. And he doesn't understand. Even after everything is said and done. And she's like, your behavior is unacceptable. The way you move through life isn't. Okay. And that's a you problem. That it is a him problem. He still tries to spin it back on her some way somehow, that none of this would have happened if she had just performed her duties like she had been programmed when he's the one who fucked around and jailbroke her to begin with. [00:22:08] Speaker B: I mean, definition of fuck around. And find out right there, I will say Erica used the word deserve, and that is a word that makes me furious. And that is exactly what his character. Like, you're 100% right. He's like, I deserve this. Like, it doesn't matter how many people. And he doesn't just hurt robots. He hurts people too, because he deserves something. [00:22:32] Speaker A: He deserves. [00:22:33] Speaker C: Like, yeah, stacked against guys like me. Guys like you have the easiest fucking ticket, bro. I don't want to hear it. [00:22:42] Speaker B: When he's in his apartment and they're playing that Goo Goo doll song, and it's literally like he unwraps her and he's setting her up and stuff. And it is one of the most, like, you know that guy you. I know. It's so disgusting. And it's so disgusting because you know him. Like, you've met that dude. Like, I've met. [00:23:01] Speaker C: Everyone knows him. [00:23:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:03] Speaker A: Yeah. We should probably highlight what toxic masculinity is too. Toxic masculinity is an attitude or set of social guidelines that are associated with manliness that often have a negative impact on men, women, and everyone else. You know, it's the idea that men need to be a certain way. We need to be alphas. We need to prove our dominance over other men, mainly by acquiring things and when dominating women and, well, you can't be the best without putting other people down. And when other people. And when men our. Our own Huey from Companion. Well, companion. And the boys, I suppose he's. He's okay in the book. Whatever. I'm not talking about. Let's not go down that road. When they feel like they're not measuring up, they become insecure. And that's where the toxicity comes in. I mean, the toxicity is there because they're acting like douchebags, but the tox, the nastiness, the cruelty, the lashing out, it comes out. It comes because they don't feel like they can match up because they have a small dick and they don't. They're not as rich as Andrew Tate, so, you know, the women in their lives have to suffer for it. Good. [00:24:16] Speaker C: I'm so sorry. I feel like that's something worth noting too, since you kind of touched on that, like, the insecurity aspect. He does keep her, like, very intentionally below her capacity. Like, her full potential. Her IQ is capped at, like, 40%. When he's got her under his controls, she's very mild and demure. Like, her whole focus really is him, and there's no leeway around that. [00:24:47] Speaker A: Yeah, that was the worst part, too, because, like, her memories are false, and she's like, it was real to me, and it doesn't mean anything to him. She's just a means to an end for him. She's a hot woman that he can go out in public with and show off. [00:25:00] Speaker B: Pretty toy. [00:25:01] Speaker A: Pretty toy. So I love Ready Or Not. I think it's a great movie. It might be perfect. I'm not sure. I've only seen it the one time, sadly, but, Adrian, who's the actress in it? [00:25:11] Speaker B: Samara Weaving. [00:25:13] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So. So Samara Weaving is getting married to a man, a very rich man, and she finds out that she can't just marry into the family. She's got to play a game. And she's like, well, that's weird. Pull a card. You know, it's this weird like tradition this rich, weird family has. And they're all, they're all like people right out of succession. They're all drug addled and up and weird, right as rich people tend to be, you know. [00:25:40] Speaker B: Oh my God, that one guy's totally Tom. I can't even. [00:25:44] Speaker A: Okay, whatever. She's like, is there any way for me to win? He's like, if we don't find you by dawn. Well, she goes and hides in the dumbwaiter and she's getting frustrated. Meanwhile they're downstairs grabbing guns, you know, halberds, crossbows and like, oh gosh, can't believe we have to do this. And her, her husband to be is just like. He's just sitting on the couch like a weak little, you know, sissy man because he's got to do what the family wants. And she gets tired of sitting in the dumb waiter because that's pretty dumb for a grown woman to be hiding on her wedding night. And yeah, she sees one of the rich people thinking it's her shoot a maid and she's like, no. And yeah, that's. Ready or not. Ready or not is fucking amazing. I love this movie, Erica. Have you seen it? [00:26:29] Speaker C: Yes. It has been a bit though, so some scenes might be a little fuzzy for me. [00:26:34] Speaker A: That's all right. So this is, this is a great movie. You know it. Societal pressure is definitely a thing because she can't back out of the wedding. And like, it's also like the toxic masculinity aspect of it is there because her husband left the family because they treated him like garbage and he thought they were weird and he knew about this creepy ritual they had. Yet he returned because he felt it was the right thing to do. [00:26:57] Speaker B: It's way more complicated than that. [00:26:59] Speaker A: Go ahead, go ahead, take it away. [00:27:01] Speaker B: He thinks that if he doesn't marry her, he knows what's going to happen if she pulls that card. He knows it's a possibility that they're going to have to hunt and kill her because he sees it when he's a kid his brother tries to protect him from. Right? So this motherfucker decides not to tell her. He feels like he is going to lose her if he doesn't propose. Even though by getting married he's putting her in danger. And he explains all of this to her like way too late. Like way way too late. And he's like, I would have, I would have lost you like this and that and all of this kind of stuff. Because she's like, why? Why didn't you even have a conversation with me? It should have been my choice. Like, what? And then, like, through the whole film, I mean, he's, you know, a wet noodle or whatever, and he tries to help her several times. Guys, by the end of the night, like, she doesn't want to be married to this guy anymore. She's got trauma for fucking ages. And the only reason he's been interested in helping her this entire time is because he thinks he owns her and that they're gonna go live happily ever after. She's gonna be the perfect little wife for him, right? And give him all the love to his heart's desire. And she's like, no, I can't. I can't do this anymore. Like, this is. This is. This is insane. Right? And so, because, you know, he can't own her anymore, what does he do? He turns around, joins the family, betrays her, and tries to kill her, too. [00:28:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Towards the end, where he. He has a chance to murder her, he's like, if I help you, will you stay with me? [00:28:44] Speaker B: That's it right there. I have that underlined in my notes. [00:28:49] Speaker A: It's an incredible moment. It's a great fucking movie. Let me see. Yeah, the whole thing with weddings is creepy to me. [00:28:56] Speaker B: Like, I don't know, whatever, mister. Oh, guys, Dan is actually getting married. He proposed to Justin, so congratulations. [00:29:04] Speaker A: I'm not having a wedding. No weddings. [00:29:06] Speaker B: I mean, it doesn't matter. You're still getting married to one of the most amazing humans. So, like, you should get a Congratulations for that. [00:29:13] Speaker A: Very true, Very true. Very. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. What did I want to say? They do some cool stuff with her dress where she's running and she has to, like. It gets stuck in the dumbwaiter, and you're like, oh, fuck, are they going to see her and shoot her? Very tense, very effective. And, you know, she does the thing that happens in many of these types of movies where she rips the dress so she can run better. Always. Very cool. [00:29:33] Speaker B: You know, and it's not done in an objective. Like. Like, they're not treating her like an object. Like a lot of movies, like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the movie, not the Series, for example, when she rips off the dress and she's got this little tutu and he gives her the jacket, but it's like this teeny tiny. You can see all of her legs. That's not what this is. It's like a power move. And she puts on sneakers. Yes, yes. [00:29:56] Speaker A: Filthy sneakers. There's a great part where she picks up a gun and it's like an elephant gun. Like. Like, it's a tease because the ammo isn't, you know, viable. But she looks pretty good with a gun. And that's. [00:30:11] Speaker B: That. [00:30:11] Speaker A: That's the thing I love to see. Because, like, it's one thing for, like, Alien to, like, show Ripley running around, like, totally desexualized, holding it, holding a gun, like a true badass. But, like, you know, a woman in her wedding dress holding a gun. It's quite the image, you know, and it. It really flies in the face of what we would expect, right? Because, like, you're. You're wearing a dress. It's your wedding night. You're a princess. It's the beginning of domestic bliss. You're soft. You're. You have pure thoughts. You're going to bear many babies. You have hands that can hold a gun. I didn't think of that. You know, because she's pretty tough. She's pretty. She's pretty tough. Like the creepy butler who. He's always singing the 1812 Overture. It's wonderful. He sees her and he tries to kill her. And she grabs his tea kettle and smashes it over his face and burns him. She steals his car. Like, [00:31:05] Speaker C: not things you would typically assume a bride would be doing on her wedding night. [00:31:09] Speaker A: They even have a line where they're like, she's a blonde twig. How is she getting away with this? You know? [00:31:14] Speaker C: Like, don't underestimate a woman. [00:31:16] Speaker A: No. [00:31:17] Speaker B: Yeah, she's my hero. Samara Weaving is like my scream queen, guys. Like, she's everything. [00:31:24] Speaker A: So do we want to talk. Do we want to talk about Scare Me? And it's toxic. Male. [00:31:29] Speaker B: So let Erica go first. Erica, you can go first. [00:31:31] Speaker A: Well, who wants to talk? Who wants to tell us what Scare Me Is? This is incredible movie. [00:31:35] Speaker B: You do it, Erica. You do it. [00:31:36] Speaker C: This one was really, really fun. [00:31:39] Speaker A: Yes. [00:31:41] Speaker C: I've never seen a movie with a concept quite like this. And I really appreciate the different points of reference and, like, visual frames that we got from it. Being placed so centrally in stories as they're told is an interesting concept. And we get to see scary movies or not movies. Pardon me. Stories come to life in this movie from the perspective of two different authors, one of which is a struggling white man who hasn't had the opportunity, so to say, to focus on his work as heavily as he needs to to reach the level of success that this woman that he is Spending the evening with has achieved. So we get to see these horror stories come to life from their perspectives and things that are horrifying to them based on like their stances in the world. Like the fact that she is a woman operating in a male dominated space. [00:32:44] Speaker A: Yeah, it's, it's, it's really fun how they use sound effects. Like they aren't meant to be diegetic, but they characters react to them anyway because they're so engrossed in each other's stories. But I should probably mention that this movie is directed and stars Adrian's boyfriend, Josh Rubin. [00:33:01] Speaker B: Josh Rubin. He wrote, directed and starred in it, guys. It's like his first. It's brilliant. [00:33:07] Speaker A: Josh, we're fans. Come on the show. Come be friends with us. [00:33:10] Speaker B: We love you, Josh Rubin. [00:33:12] Speaker A: Just saying. Adrian, do you want to elaborate on the movie and the toxic masculinity of the actor, the author, the main character? Well, I guess he's. Is he the main character? [00:33:22] Speaker C: I would argue that he is the main antagonist in her story. [00:33:27] Speaker A: In her story. [00:33:28] Speaker B: It is her story because she does the work. Like she says in the movie, do the work. [00:33:34] Speaker A: Do the work. [00:33:35] Speaker B: She has Eternal Girl, [00:33:39] Speaker C: the only girl. [00:33:40] Speaker A: The best, the bestest girl. [00:33:44] Speaker B: She's the bestest girl. [00:33:45] Speaker A: That's funny. I like that. [00:33:47] Speaker B: Guys, I've seen this movie like over a hundred times. It is one of my all time forever favorite films. One of the most important lines. I, I mean, there's so many in this film. And the thing is like, you know that Fred is a mess. He's talking about, oh, I'm an actor. Oh, I'm this. He's like, oh, well, have you done anything that I've seen? And he's like, commercials mostly, you know, this guy, she's like, well, what, what kind of writing are you working on? And he's like, well, writers don't like to tell their stuff and blah, blah, blah. And so the lady driving them to the cabin literally starts telling him about the story that she's writing. And he just like, you know, brushes her off and then totally steals her idea later. It's pretty fucking funny actually. But it's like the whole thing. But at one point, Franny literally, like, it's the final showdown and everything's been fun and games until Fred's insecurities like, just take over him. And it's like he's possessed by them almost, right? And then all of a sudden, it's not a scary story. It's. It's him. He is the scary story. Like all of this stuff ensues. And I won't give away the entire ending, but he wants her to kill him towards the end, right? [00:35:05] Speaker A: Right. [00:35:05] Speaker B: And, like, he's, like, begging her. And she does feel sorry for him. And she just looks at him and she's like, fred, you fragile. You know, like. And that's. Guys, that's the movie. She chews him up. She's like, I'm a woman. I have to work harder and do more than you will ever understand. And I do the work. She's like, you. You just play at stuff and you don't have to. You don't try. You don't put the effort into it. Like, do the fucking work. [00:35:36] Speaker A: Do the work. [00:35:36] Speaker B: Do the work. Yeah, we should make that a hashtag. That should actually be a thing. [00:35:40] Speaker A: Do the work. So that's the thing, though. [00:35:42] Speaker C: Like, do the work. [00:35:43] Speaker A: All this toxic masculinity, not just in these movies, but in real life. I mean, you know, we all know men that are like this. And I can be like this, too. I mean, it's. It's endemic to the way men are allowed to act and expected to act, you know, like, I'm not doing anything noble by saying that. Like, I've had toxic moments. I've been toxic in relationships in the past. You know what I mean? And it's just part of being a man and recognizing that and apologizing when it happens or it's brought to your attention. But it all comes down to insecurity, right? Like in real life, like, 100. Like, I've been in the past, I was so nasty to other writers, you know, especially female writers, because I was unrealistic about what I was doing and I wasn't putting in the work. Now in my old age of 36, I mean, like, you know, I've self published books, I've done things. You know, I make this podcast. I edit Death Wish. Like, I feel okay, but like, our hero and scare me, he's not doing anything. He's like, yeah, you know, I'm doing some commercials and stuff. I'm a writer. He loves to tell people he's a writer, but he doesn't like to do the work because the work isn't glamorous. It's hard. It's soul crushing and it's difficult. But, you know, sadly, if you do the. If you put in the work, as I encourage people to do, the rewards are substantial, you know, existentially at least, right? [00:36:55] Speaker B: Yes, 100%. [00:36:57] Speaker A: I mean, you know, if you're like, some of the Women we've. We've interviewed lately on the show, I mean, they can also, you know, pay the bills, but, you know, we love you, Maria and Linda. You guys are great. No kayfabe. Do we want to talk about scare me more or do we want to move on to another topic? [00:37:14] Speaker B: We can move into another film. This is my friend Janka's piece of artwork for the first horror film Art society movie, which was me. So it's got all of these different versions of Fred and it says Fred, you fragile fuck at the bottom. It is brilliant. [00:37:30] Speaker A: Hey, that's great. [00:37:32] Speaker B: I know. [00:37:33] Speaker A: Okay, do we want to go to Abuse? We talked about agency, right? [00:37:38] Speaker B: We have not talked about agency yet. We've barely touched on it as we were doing objectification first. [00:37:45] Speaker A: This is why. This is why you're here. All right, all right. Yeah, let's do. Let's do agency. So, yeah, agency is another important aspect of feminist horror. And like, I mean, it's not exactly a horror movie in the same way that all these other ones are, right? Like Alien and Aliens, however, use Ripley in a way that at the time was unconventional and I would argue still is rather unconventional. Right? Like, you could point to all these female superheroes and I'm just gonna go like, yeah, okay, but like, what are they wearing? What are they doing? What are they doing when they're not doing this? You know, like Alien. Alien. Ripley in Alien. Like, we see her vulnerable. We see her working. We also see her taking charge. Right? I mean, in that first movie, she's holding a flamethrower just as well as any of the guys. And she's also a functioning worker on that creepy. What is it, an oil Derek in space? It's something. It's some industrial ship, right? Yeah. It's the second one, though, where she's, you know, she's protecting that little girl and like, well, you can say, well, that's a pretty maternal thing to do. She's a gun toting badass fighting an alien queen. That's awesome. You know? Get away from her, you bitch. Yeah, exactly. It's wonderful stuff. You know, she is shattering gender norms in a way that Linda Hamilton wouldn't do till Terminator 2. You know what I mean? [00:39:04] Speaker B: So, yeah, but Linda Hamilton definitely rocked that in Terminator 2. I'm just saying. [00:39:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, Linda Hamilton's awesome. I mean, we love her and we love our Linda Hamilton too, who we interviewed on the show. These are different Linda Hamiltons. They're not to be confused. Get it straight. So, yeah, so eight when we talk about agency, though, we're talking about a woman's ability to choose for herself. And we're not just talking about abortion. Although that is a theme in apartment 7A, which is a pre. Equal to Rosemary's Baby. That is much better than you think it is. [00:39:33] Speaker B: You know, Julia Garner is fantastic in that. [00:39:37] Speaker A: She's great. [00:39:38] Speaker B: She's great, but not like, I love Samara Weaving. She's my girl. It's fine. I'll keep her. It's okay. [00:39:44] Speaker A: It's a lot of night. There's a lot of nice ladies in the world. Right? You know? So anyway. Anyway. Yeah, so apartment 7A. I mean, we could talk about that. She is pregnant with a child she doesn't want because she wants to be a dancer. [00:39:56] Speaker B: And it wasn't by choice either. [00:39:58] Speaker A: No, no, no, no. She is. [00:40:00] Speaker B: And that's a whole thing. [00:40:01] Speaker A: She's sexually assaulted. Unlike in Rosemary. Well, Rosemary's Baby, she's. You know, that lady is also sexually assaulted. Rosemary is also sexually assaulted, but, you know, she doesn't know what's happening in apartment 7A. She does, and she tries to abort the baby at one point, and obviously it's the devil child, so she can't do that. But I thought that was a pretty interesting scene. [00:40:23] Speaker B: It was actually really powerful from a female perspective, I will just say, because, you know, that stuff is. It's hard and especially right now, and I'm not going to get too far into politics, but, like, dude, that's very controversial and I feel like. Because the time period, the take that it takes place in, which is what, the 70s? 60s? Yes. [00:40:45] Speaker A: Yeah. I think it's like the. [00:40:46] Speaker B: I think it's the seventies. [00:40:47] Speaker A: Is it okay? [00:40:49] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know. [00:40:49] Speaker A: Whatever. Who cares? [00:40:50] Speaker B: Yeah, but like, women were like, you know, they were trying to take their agency. Like, people were, you know, like Roe versus Wade happened and all kinds of stuff where women finally. Because forever, just about, like, abortions were illegal. Guess what? We've gone back in time, sadly. But this movie, like, it's very poignant is what I was trying to get at. [00:41:18] Speaker A: Yeah. It feels like it's looking back, but considering we're losing rights as a nation. Yeah, it's kind of sad. I want to mention that about agency. Like, agency is the kind of thing where it's not just pertaining to a woman saying no to sex, being able to consent or remove consent. It's not just, you know, the ability to get an abortion. Like in Run, Sweetheart, Run, she doesn't really have a say on Whether or not she goes to have dinner with that guy who assaults her, she has to do that. It's her job. And like, you know, she looks at his picture and he's a young, attractive man. So obviously she's going to be. He's going to be interested in her, and she can't not go to that dinner and put herself in that position. She doesn't have that kind of pull, you know? And like, yeah, you might say that, like, if it was me right at the bottom of the corporate ladder, like that, having to go on a dinner with a couple client. Okay, but he's not. Chances are he's not going to have, like, sexual thoughts about me, like he's going to have about our hero and Run, sweetheart, run. You know, [00:42:24] Speaker B: all of her choices for over half of the movie. Like, you have the. The jail scene where, like, they let her. They let him in and he tells her to run, that he's going to give her a head start. And she's like, I don't want to go. And they're like, you made bail. And they make her leave the jail anyway. All of her choices are just continuously taken away from her up until a point. And then she starts being able to make her own decisions and she starts figuring out, like, I guess how to handle the situation so she can live because it's like, companion. She doesn't want to die. She has a daughter, like, and they use that against her many times as well. But that's another conversation in a bit. [00:43:13] Speaker A: So part. So I. I want to touch on this. Okay, so one of the. There's this key moment where Euron Greyjoy corners her and she's only saved by the intervention of a dog, right? And I was like, ooh, that's kind of fun. Because, like, there's this trope in our culture where women will who live alone will have a dog. And dogs are pretty good at the deterring creepy men. But my fiance pointed out that our main character is a woman of color and the dog was a pit bull. And that's like a cultural thing where a lot of black women who live alone feel safe with a dog that has a nasty reputation. I'm not 100% on that. I don't want to be the. I wish miracle was here. But I mean, Erica, can you comment on that? If not, we will cut this whole bit. [00:43:57] Speaker C: I feel like that is something that is seen pretty frequently. Don't. I can't say myself if it's something that's like, almost exclusive to the black Community. Because I know a variety of women who have lived alone at certain points in their lives or currently do. [00:44:14] Speaker A: Okay. [00:44:15] Speaker C: And it's just kind of a trend amongst women, I'd say to have a scary dog, like scary dog. Privilege was a thing that was going around on TikTok for a little bit. [00:44:25] Speaker A: Really. [00:44:25] Speaker C: It was just like young single women showing off their huge aggressive looking dogs. [00:44:32] Speaker B: It's a thing my friend Holly actually did that. [00:44:35] Speaker C: My mom is an itty bitty white lady and her favorite dog breeds are Pitbulls and Rottweilers. [00:44:42] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, that's the game right there. I, I like Pitbulls. I think they're cute. I know that they can be aggressive. One of our writers, actually Casey, he has a pit bull and it's a sweet dog but it cannot be around other dogs because they are fighting dogs and they are known to show aggression to other dogs. But he lets that doggie around his kids. So you know, it's all about how the dog is raised, I think, you know, by and large. [00:45:04] Speaker C: But yeah, got a blind pity named Bella and she's the sweetest baby in the world. She's all white and she thinks she's a lap puppy still. She's like £100 almost. But she just wants to sit on you and look on you all day. [00:45:18] Speaker B: Does she smile? Does she have that big grin? That is the key to me, that's really. [00:45:24] Speaker C: My mom's guard dog is her 15 year old fat chihuahua and her little crusty white grandma dog. The stereotypical grandma dog, that one bites and breaks skin. The pit bull just wants to cuddle. [00:45:39] Speaker A: Well, so I mean, you know, bringing it back, that's awesome. But bringing it back to run, sweetheart, run. I mean I like. In light of these revelations and insights, I think it's great that the movie highlights her taking because that's the moment where she gets her agency, she gets this dog that's like step one, you know. [00:45:56] Speaker B: I think the biggest moment is the ending because throughout the movie the bad guy, he'll take the camera like I mentioned earlier. But at the very end she learns to use her femininity, even her minstrel blood to defeat him, right? She takes charge of all of that and uses it to defend herself and all of this stuff. But at the end the she's the one that takes the camera and she turns it around so you can see him die. Instead of avoiding the violence, she takes it and she's like this is it. And it's her with these other women like who are tired of Being hunted. Because this guy's entire point, I call him a guy. He's not this monster's entire point is to keep women down. And he typically targets really intelligent women that are, like, special in some way. [00:46:57] Speaker A: It's his job. It's his job to preemptively kill any hint of matriarchy. That's his job. He's. He's. He's some kind of eldritch fallen angel, you know? Yeah. You know, the, the whole thing with the, with the camera is that he is so powerful he can control the fourth wall. And like. Yeah, he doesn't want you to see the ugly side of what he does. He just wants you to see how demure and how refined and beautiful he is as a man. And like. Yeah, you're right, Adrian. You're. You're. You're completely correct. It's like he wants you to know that he's all powerful and that he dominates women. But you, you know, like, when he first assaults her, what happens is he, he. He lures her into the house, like, oh, I mean, you could come in and spend the night or whatever. And she's like, ah, whatever. Yeah, sure. She goes in, door closes, and you hear, you hear her screaming. You hear the banging. Camera doesn't go in. You don't get to see it. You're correct. Your analysis is spot on. And, yeah, she turns the camera so that you could see her brutal retribution. [00:47:54] Speaker B: Yes, it's. It's extremely powerful. And as a, as a female, it was pretty cathartic. I'm not gonna lie. Like, you're like, bye, motherfucker. Bye. [00:48:06] Speaker A: Yeah, it helps that it's Euron Greyjoy. You know, he gets punished for sucking in Game of Thrones, so. [00:48:10] Speaker B: And they make him at first, like, they have. It's kind of like companion. Like they have this wonderful little date. He takes her roller skating. And here's the other thing. Like, Dan just mentioned how he invites her into his house to spend the night. She almost doesn't go. She's like, you know, at first she's like, okay, yeah, let's do this. He kisses her, she gets out of the car. She's like, you know what? I really shouldn't do this. She's like, I should get home. And he kind of does that manipulation, like it's a total love bombing thing that he does at the beginning, right? So she thinks he's safe. And. But she does have this inkling because there is an instance with the dog at the beginning in the restaurant. And he, like, freaks Out. And then he's like, oh, I'm sorry. I got bit by a dog when I was young and they freaked me out. I'm so sorry. And he does this thing where he tells her to never apologize to him, even at the end. Right. Because he thinks he's won. He's got her crucified. It's crazy. Awesome. But no, that is not how it goes down. But he doesn't think he can. She can hurt him anymore. He thinks she's powerless, that he keeps telling her through the entire movie, she has no power, she has no control. He tells her that. Especially in the prison. Not prison. I keep calling it a prison. [00:49:26] Speaker C: It's a jail. [00:49:26] Speaker B: There's a difference, right? But yeah, it's. It's crazy. But, yeah, she almost. And every female has that little voice in the pit of their stomach where we're like, maybe this is a bad idea. And then we let other people or ourselves convince ourselves, oh, there's nothing to worry about. It's fine. [00:49:46] Speaker A: Right? Right. [00:49:47] Speaker B: And it's not. And he smiles as he closes the door. He looks directly into the camera, and he smiles at you. And he is smiling directly at you, the viewer. [00:49:57] Speaker A: Yes. [00:49:57] Speaker B: And closes the door. And then the screaming ensues. [00:50:00] Speaker A: It's pretty awesome. Like, it's pretty. It's chilling. [00:50:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:05] Speaker A: So, okay, here's what I wanted to ask. Do we want to wrap up and pick this up next time? And then we could do a third episode where we do fairy tale horror? [00:50:13] Speaker B: Let's do it. [00:50:14] Speaker A: Okay. Do we feel like we covered? Because what did we talk about? We talked about agency. We talked about. [00:50:22] Speaker B: We haven't talked about social pressure, motherhood, mental health and abuse. [00:50:28] Speaker A: Well, you guys are fucking great. So, you know, thank you for this. This is very fun. Okay. So, yeah, I mean, that concludes part one. We'll be back next time to talk about societal pressure, mental health, abuse, and motherhood, which are all very prescient issues for the ladies in the audience. These two here and our other co hosts, of course, who are female or assigned female at birth. Right. So with that being said, do come back next time, like, and subscribe if you haven't. I'm King Loki. That's old Norse for Daniel Sokoloff. I started a YouTube channel where I've mostly been reviewing Transformers comics. I'm researching an episode on female Transformers and gender in the franchise. So this is Arcee. She's very cute. I love her very much. Mostly reviewing the old IDW comics. But, yeah, deathwishpoetry.com. that's the magazine I edit that the. Is part of. Read my books. Dblandbooks.com. that's all. Adrienne, do you want to tell us what you're doing? [00:51:23] Speaker B: Well, first off, guys, someone had a birthday this week, and it would be our great, amazing host, King Loki. He just turned 36, so if you're watching this video, leave him a belated happy birthday comment because we couldn't do this without you, Dan. You're everything. [00:51:39] Speaker A: Thank you. Very kind of you. [00:51:41] Speaker B: And I'm Adrian, and I painted, and I love you guys. [00:51:44] Speaker A: Yeah, she's. She's way too demure. She's way too humble. So Adrian is the editor, the managing editor of Goblin Crypt. [00:51:56] Speaker B: I do do that. [00:51:57] Speaker A: Yeah, you do. Goblin Crypt Art and culture magazine. They. There's almost always a call for submissions out. Generally, Adrian picks a movie, and you're encouraged to paint or write something in response to that movie. And, well, if you get published, you get a copy of the magazine. And it's pretty cool because there's also a. A live show. [00:52:20] Speaker B: We do a quarterly live show. [00:52:22] Speaker A: Okay. [00:52:23] Speaker B: Every four months, it will be at [00:52:25] Speaker A: Idol Art Studio in Amarillo, Texas. [00:52:28] Speaker B: In Amarillo, Texas. [00:52:30] Speaker A: Yeah. So follow Horror Art Film Society on Instagram. Follow Adrian, Shout out Lily. The fucking links are down below. Adrian, anything else you want to promote? Are you doing commissions? You're cool. And of course, last but definitely not least, Erica, you want to do your plugs, if any? [00:52:45] Speaker C: I write inconsistently, but we're getting better about it. If you want to find my poetry, you can do that over on Instagram. Onstrumixemplum. [00:52:54] Speaker A: That's right. Links below. She's also in Dublish Poetry magazine because she's brilliant. I realized that was your poem until I looked back, I was like, oh, that's Erica. Wow. Like, I usually don't see that stuff. So I have to do the acceptance letters. And I'm like, oh, cool. That was you. That's awesome. So, yeah, that being said, look, it's hard out there. Write poetry, make art, and love your demons. [00:53:17] Speaker B: And be nice to your women. [00:53:19] Speaker A: Be nice to your women. Be nice to everyone, but be nice to your women. You know, think about that. What did I want? What else did I want to say? Yeah, you know, feel free to join our discord if you want. We do have a workshop that happens every week, and we're looking to do open mics and stuff, so community is really important, especially when you're a creative. And again, we live in historic times, so that's all I've got for you. Ave, Satanas. We'll see you next time. [00:54:03] Speaker B: Sa. Sam. Sa, [00:55:20] Speaker A: Sam. Sa.