Feminist Horror: Fairytale Horror!

[00:00:00] Speaker A: So before we get started, I just need to go on record and let you all know this has to. I can't believe I even have to say this, but I am not and have never been, quote, the Hamburglar. Okay? I'm sick of the slander. I'm sick of the, you know, just. Again, all right, I think we can all move past this. We're all adults, I think. [00:00:19] Speaker B: You know, I mean, do you want to show the. [00:00:21] Speaker C: Oh, I haven't seen you and the Hamburglar in the same room. [00:00:24] Speaker A: I mean, that is. [00:00:26] Speaker B: She just said it. [00:00:27] Speaker A: Look, I am not the Hamburglar. You know, there's a lot of people who aren't here. You know, I mean, Starscream isn't here. I am also not Starscream. I wish I was. Then I could fly, you know? All right, well, now that we've gotten that nasty bit of business out of the way, I'm King Loki, the editor of Death Wish Poetry magazine. And this is Demon Toast, the podcast for gothic and horrific literature. How's everyone doing? With me are Marissa, our special guest, who. Who is a. Well, folklorist, writer, poet, photographer, woman of many trades. You know, you wear. You wear a lot of different headpieces there, you know, Renaissance woman. Renaissance woman. We have Erica Jordan, who is also one of our co hosts and an, you know, one of the writer. One of our Death Wish writers. She is a poet. A what? Do you have a bachelor's in English, right? [00:01:17] Speaker C: I do. [00:01:17] Speaker A: And you're pursuing your master's, right? [00:01:19] Speaker C: Hopefully soon. Yes, we've been moving around a lot. [00:01:22] Speaker A: Yeah, Life is life. Is Garbo like that? And finally, we have Adrian, our other co host. She is also a folklorist, a painter, awesome person, and one of my best friends in the whole wide world. Adrian, how are you doing? Peachy keen, peachy keen. So, yeah, we're. That is a very good answer. Let's see. Fuck Neil Gaiman, by the way. [00:01:43] Speaker B: Thank you. Because, you know, it's death. [00:01:44] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I know, I know. We all know. Yeah. So we are here for the third part of our series on feminist horror. And today we are covering fairy tale horror. [00:01:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm excited. [00:01:56] Speaker A: Yeah, it's gonna be cool. It's very interesting. Last two episodes, we. We set up a quadrant, right, where feminist horror is concerned with motherhood, agency abuse, societal pressure, and toxic masculinity. Let's see. I think I missed something. Oh, objectification. How could I forget the most popular one. [00:02:16] Speaker B: It's not anything any of us have ever dealt with, ever. [00:02:19] Speaker D: Never. [00:02:20] Speaker B: Even Dan has had to deal with it. It happens. [00:02:23] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, look, I mean, the thing about gender. Gender norms is they hurt everyone, even the men who want to uphold them, because they control how you are able to behave and express yourself. You know, there's a time where wearing makeup like I'm doing and expressing myself and being engaged to a man would have gotten me in a lot of trouble. So, you know, I. Yeah, I think we can all agree that third wave feminism was a win and continues to be a win. Are we in fourth wave feminism? I don't know. I'm a little uneducated. Yeah. But that being said, we have on. On, you know, to analyze today. We have four very interesting and different movies. We have the Lore, a Polish movie, one of only a few Polish films I've seen. Very stylish, very interesting, very cool, very sexy. The Ugly Stepsister stand out of eight. Was it last year? [00:03:15] Speaker B: It was last year. It was one of my top. It was nominated for an Academy Award this year. [00:03:19] Speaker A: Brilliant, gruesome, horrific movie. Which, let's see, the lore was of course, to take on the Little Mermaid. The Ugly Stepsister is, of course, a take on Walt Disney's masterpiece and classic fairy tale, Cinderella and, well, the Shape of Water, which is not a traditional fairy tale, but has the theming of a fairy tale and has many of the themes we are talking about. We'll get deeper into that later. And finally, Snow White. [00:03:48] Speaker B: Snow White. A tale of terror. [00:03:50] Speaker A: Yes, a tale of terror. Probably the most conventional of the movies we looked at, I want to say, but, you know, definitely a relic from the 90s. Very interesting movie. Some of us got more out of it than others, which is why we're. We're a panel and we're not just me yelling at the screen, so. Or me or Adrian. Adrian and Marissa really liked it. I would have never added this to the list, but Adrian mentioned it and I was like, well, it's probably better than Snow White and the Huntsman, you [00:04:17] Speaker B: know, which you cannot argue that it is. It is 100. [00:04:21] Speaker A: I mean, it's got a thousand times better. [00:04:23] Speaker B: It is. It is. It's a beautiful story. It is dated, but it's beautiful. And I've been obsessed with that movie since the 90s. [00:04:32] Speaker D: Practical effects and not technology. [00:04:35] Speaker A: Yeah, but. [00:04:35] Speaker B: Yeah, but it was like 1998. I'm old. [00:04:39] Speaker A: Counterpoint. Counterpoint. Snowy. Didn't Thor in it? [00:04:44] Speaker B: It had Chris Hemsworth, not Thor. [00:04:46] Speaker D: There's a difference in it. [00:04:47] Speaker A: I don't know. He was spinning. He was spinning. That ax like Mjolnir. [00:04:50] Speaker B: No, but he wasn't worthy. [00:04:52] Speaker A: Oh, whatever. All right, well, we're not here to talk about Snow White and the Huntsman. Let's talk about. [00:04:57] Speaker B: Thank God. [00:04:58] Speaker A: Let's talk about the themes of agency in Snow White. You know, why don't we start there, right? I know everyone's here us talk about the shape of water, but too bad. This is our show. So agency. It goes without saying that the evil queen played by the phenomenal Sigourney Weaver, she's the one with all the cards. And she is truly a terrifying femme fatale. Right? [00:05:20] Speaker B: She is. I will say, I don't think it started out where she was the one holding all the cards. I think the entire movie is based around trauma responses. [00:05:31] Speaker D: Yeah. I think for all of them. [00:05:33] Speaker B: Almost like, literally for every single character. [00:05:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Hard to disagree with that reading. I mean, the movie does start out pretty horrifically. Right. Like, little Snow White sparred apart by wolves. Right. [00:05:45] Speaker B: I really loved how it did start from the real fairy tale, where she pricks her finger while she's sewing and she sees the blood. Like, that's something you don't see in a lot of versions of Snow White. And it's like the cornerstone of the whole story. [00:06:02] Speaker A: I mean, it's the part that resonates the most with me where she says, you know, oh, that I had a daughter with skin as white as snow, lips as red as blood, and hair as black as ebony. It's so evocative, you know? [00:06:13] Speaker B: It is. [00:06:15] Speaker A: So the mother dies horrifically. And Marisa brought it to my. Brought to my attention that an earlier version of the fairy tale, it was actually the mother. Right. Who wanted. Who was jealous of Snow White, and they changed it. [00:06:28] Speaker D: Yes. So in the 1812 version, Grimm Fairy tale, there was no stepmother. It was just her mother. And the. The pricking your finger, the wishing for a child happens that all of that was still there, but they kind of explored more of that maternal jealousy because the mother felt like she lost her husband to her daughter. And I think in the. It was 1819 that they changed it. It was to try to preserve that holiness, if you will, of motherhood. Sorry, we have an interrupting friend here. [00:07:06] Speaker B: Your interrupting friend is really cute. [00:07:08] Speaker A: We love pets here. [00:07:09] Speaker D: Yes, he is. He's spooky. So he felt like he should be included, but no. So it was, in large part an attempt to preserve that, like, image of motherhood and not make her own mother the bad guy, but still have this metaphor of beauty being perceived. The only power That a woman has. [00:07:31] Speaker A: Yes. Okay. Yeah. Because motherhood is seen as the saintly thing. It's. It's a woman's role. It's her highest calling. And there's no way a mother would be jealous of her daughter's beauty. That's. That's almost blasphemous. Right, Exactly. Right. But, like, I mean, I've never been a female, but there's three of you here. I'm sure you've had some issues with your mothers in the past at some point, at some juncture. [00:07:54] Speaker D: Not necessarily on that tone, but. Yeah. [00:07:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:58] Speaker B: Like, not on. Not on the jealousy level, but, you know, mothers are always complicated. And as a mother, being a mom with a daughter, it can get super weird. I'll tell you. I'm in a place where I'm just happy that my daughter is her own weird little self. [00:08:18] Speaker A: Yes. [00:08:18] Speaker B: And I get super excited about the person that she is and the person that she chooses to be. I cannot imagine a world where, like, you want your kid, or you should, I hope, want your kid to be better than you. That's literally, like. That's, like, life goals, at least for me, having a kid. So being jealous and wanting to cause harm to my kid because she's outdoing me at something like. Like, my daughter is a phenomenal artist. She does things that blow my mind as an artist, a professional one. And it's probably one of the most beautiful things. Like, half the time, she inspires me. It's really cool. We have this, like. But that is not what Snow White got. [00:09:00] Speaker A: No, no. And I think that, like, it speaks to the difference between the types of person you're allowed to be and you allow your daughter to be and the value you put in your daughter. She's not just something to be married off and adored. Right. She's a full person. Whereas Snow White. [00:09:18] Speaker B: I mean, in the time period, she's a piece of property. Like, especially being the daughter of a noble, she's a piece of property. She's literally, like, supposed to solve problems. [00:09:29] Speaker A: Yeah. So that's it. Yeah. Definitely getting back to the theme of agency. Right. The queen, the stepmother, the evil stepmother, as it were. She uses her charms to manipulate her brother Gustav into killing Snow and removing her rival for the father's affection. She is. So the. The most prominent motif in this movie is the mirror. Right. She looks in the mirror, and she sees an idealized CGI version of herself with rippling, beautiful CGI hair. You know? And that is the version of herself that compels her to do all these horrible things. So, in essence, her greatest strength is also her. It's a confining cage, much like how masculinity, the things that we do to assert ourselves, are also confining because it doesn't allow us to be ourselves and forces to act in ways that are contrary to our nature, as we'll see when we get into the shape of water. Right. Let me think. I don't know. How about it? Go ahead. [00:10:25] Speaker B: I will say this movie also deals with, like, postpartum depression. [00:10:29] Speaker A: Okay. [00:10:30] Speaker B: And the depression of losing a child. [00:10:34] Speaker A: Right, right, right. She does lose a child. Correct. This is the only movie that touches the quadrant of motherhood that we have today. [00:10:40] Speaker B: And for the 90s, I'm going to tell you guys, this was something that was not commonly seen. Like, actually, even though she's the wicked stepmother, and it is Snow White, a horror story, right? Like a tale of terror, but it's. It's actually more human than probably any fairy tale anything I'd seen up until that point. Because it did deal with things like, you do actually sympathize with her at points. Like she goes, she loses a baby. She's afraid her husband doesn't love her anymore. Like, he's losing interest in her. And all of her. All of her self worth, all of her agency that she has in her life is based on her beauty. [00:11:23] Speaker A: Right? [00:11:23] Speaker B: So losing that and then losing that in her depression after losing the child, because what were women good for back then? Bearing children and their beauty? That's it. [00:11:35] Speaker A: And I think that that's the definition of agency, right? That a woman can have. And under certain frameworks of society, that's all the agency a woman should have. And I think. [00:11:45] Speaker B: But in this movie, it turns her into a monster. And that is what makes it interesting. [00:11:49] Speaker A: Well, exactly, because that's. That's kind of where that leads, right? Because you can control. You can. You can overthrow empires if you're beautiful, and you can play people against each other. But that fades. And at the end of the day, what you're really doing is you're selling yourself. It's not real agency. So. And that's why it's a horror story, right? Not just because Gustav murders a pig. Talk about how this movie is. Because, like, we were talking before the podcast, and I was like, well, I mean, I know what the worst movie we've watched today is. And Marissa's like, I don't know, man. Still, wait's my favorite. So, you know, why was it my favorite? Yeah. [00:12:25] Speaker D: So, like, if we're keeping with the theme of agency. Like, I think this is one of the better versions where we see. So they used a lot of German folklore for the mirror stuff that they did. In German folklore, there are two concepts that they play with with mirrors. And one is that you can have a doppelganger inside the mirror that can like, persuade you to things and convince you of things. And they also have this other concept where they believe that mirrors have the ability to reflect things back at you that maybe you are aware of but were unable to say to yourself or accept. And I think it's fun to see them use these like, folklore based mirror concepts instead of our Disneyfied, like, who's the fairest of them all? [00:13:18] Speaker B: Mirror, mirror on the wall. [00:13:19] Speaker A: I mean, that she's actually having these [00:13:22] Speaker D: conversations and when she realizes that Gustav betrayed her, the mirror doesn't actually tell her. The mirror is just like. But did he though? Are you sure? So they use it in such an interesting way that it's introspective and reflects on her character and then it almost turns into her, like. Like she knocks the entire castle out. They're all dead or frozen. She takes control using this twisted version of herself that, that develops as she sits in front of the mirror. And every time she has these interactions, like, she twists further and further and becomes this darker and darker entity because of this other self that she keeps speaking to in the mirror. [00:14:08] Speaker A: I mean, the movie gets zero stars though, for having, for not having seven dwarves, though, right? [00:14:12] Speaker D: Okay, but the seven dwarfs had no personalities. [00:14:15] Speaker A: They had actually, they, they, they had both. They were sleepy and he was sleepy. There was, there was. There was Grumpy, Dopey, and Doc. Okay, I'm just, I'm just fucking trolling. It's, it's just a joke. [00:14:30] Speaker D: You better be trolling. [00:14:31] Speaker B: I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna say, like, [00:14:33] Speaker A: what are you talking about? That doc was in the original fucking Grimmer. [00:14:37] Speaker B: Doc was my favorite. The original Disney version, not the original context. [00:14:42] Speaker D: Yeah, there's not the, the folkloric and, you know, grim tale. [00:14:48] Speaker B: The origin in this movie. Instead of Dwarves, they made it very human. They use their fantastical elements to highlight mental instability and like, like I said, the postpartum depression. And that's most of the magic in the movie. Like the dwarves are turned into criminals. They're criminals who are hiding and just trying to make a life. [00:15:13] Speaker A: Well, no, no, no, I think it's. I think it's very well done actually. Like, all joking and trolling aside, you know, it's more realistic. They're a little more humanistic. Like, he's like, oh, you know, they. They. The crusaders burned my face with the cross because I didn't want to fight. The other one is a thief because he was poor. Like, they're all. They're outcasts. They're not just happy dwarves mining and the coal mine or whatever. Like, yeah, if you're gonna do something. [00:15:37] Speaker B: Well, also, they're not dwarves at all, but it's okay. [00:15:38] Speaker A: Well, there's one dwarf. [00:15:40] Speaker B: Yes. And he's precious. [00:15:41] Speaker A: He's like a leper. All right, but speaking. Getting back to agency, right? The Ugly Stepsister. You want to talk about agency? That movie wears that. That. That quadrant around its neck. [00:15:51] Speaker B: Man, I had to watch Ugly Fingers. [00:15:57] Speaker A: Great film. [00:15:58] Speaker B: What did you say, Marissa? [00:15:59] Speaker D: I said I had to watch it through my fingers. It was so gruesome. It was so important. It was so important, but it was so gruesome. [00:16:10] Speaker A: So the Ugly Stepsister. This movie is Cinderella, but from the perspective of the Ugly Stepsister, hence the title. It does not take away the magic of the fairy tale. Right. Like, she sees through the keyhole. She sees the mice making her dress. She sees the fairy godmother and all kinds of. But the thing is that she's not pretty herself, and she doesn't have the privilege of an. Of a magic fairy godmother to help her. So she. If she wants to marry a prince, she's got to do a lot of work. She needs to get a nose job. And in the year 1410 or whatever, that could. Well, go ahead. [00:16:47] Speaker B: She doesn't have very. [00:16:49] Speaker A: Yeah, barbaric. And that's the key thing because, like, we don't think of these things as barbaric, but it is pretty horrifying the things we do to our bodies to look beautiful and. And the things that she does. I mean, to lose weight, she swallows a tapeworm, which, if you haven't seen this movie and you don't know what that's like, just. Just look it up. [00:17:06] Speaker D: Fun fact. [00:17:06] Speaker C: So traumatizing. [00:17:08] Speaker D: They really did that? [00:17:09] Speaker A: Yep. [00:17:09] Speaker B: They still do it, honey. They do it in Hollywood. That's why they make Black Mirror about it. Like it's a whole thing. [00:17:16] Speaker D: Absolutely. But I'm just saying, it was common practice for a while. The doctor would come visit and be like, oh, you need to lose weight. Here. Here's some tapeworms, some tape. That'll solve the problem. [00:17:26] Speaker C: Honestly, I feel like if it wasn't such a taboo blas thing to do, there'd be A good handful of doctors that would still be pushing for those types of procedures nowadays. All for the sake of weight loss. Because as a woman, no one's going to take your health seriously until you lose the weight. [00:17:43] Speaker D: Yep. Can't tell you how many times that's been said to me at a doctor's appointment. [00:17:47] Speaker B: My gosh, I'm literally not start crying right now. That's fine. [00:17:51] Speaker A: So this movie is. [00:17:52] Speaker D: It's an epic movie. [00:17:53] Speaker A: It's an epic movie. And like, Marissa's point about, like, you know, the best of these movies adhering to the elements and tropes that make the fairy tale in its original form. You know, the fairy tale. Right. As a Morpheus and the Sandman says the the best of stories will always return to their true form. This movie does so right down to the horrific, gruesome up ending with where. Well, yeah, I mean, you've got got to fit into the glass slipper. And to quote Cradle of Filth, you know, the final dance will be the cue. She amputates to fit the shoe. [00:18:26] Speaker B: And that people do not realize how absolutely dark and insane these things are. Like, these are our horror stories from. [00:18:35] Speaker A: Yeah, and I mean, like the Snow White thing. I mean, like, they do leave out the bit where they make the evil stepmother dance in iron shoes until she dies. But, you know. [00:18:45] Speaker D: Yeah. Instead she just kind of burns alive. [00:18:48] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, talk about agency and the ugly stepsister. [00:18:53] Speaker B: Well, I can tell you our main character. I'm not going to call her our heroine, even though she kind of is Elvira. She is trying to take control of her life. She has these dreams of things. She lets her mother dictate and control everything. Once again, we have a mother who's being all crazy. It's a thing. She didn't have a choice to get her nose broken. Her mother actually breaks it for her without telling her. Like, she takes her to the doctor and they break it. [00:19:22] Speaker C: It's awful. [00:19:23] Speaker A: It's a really horrifying scene. Yeah, it's. [00:19:26] Speaker B: It's. I would say it's one of the most horrific things. But, like, really, this movie is so full with humor. But also she's trying to find ways to, you know, make her life better. And she has this sister where magical things happen who's so pretty. And even though her life sucks, like, everything is working out for Cinderella and this girl has to work super, super hard for it. So she's trying to take control of it. [00:19:55] Speaker A: And what I like about that aspect is that there's nothing special about Cinderella. Like we see her, like, you know, having sex with the stable boy, you know, and of course, Elvira goes and tells on her. And the mother's like, you know, a princess doesn't. Doesn't fuck stable boys, and she smacks her. Speaking of abuse, that's another quadrant here. This movie has a lot of abuse in it. [00:20:14] Speaker B: You know, all of them do. Like, literally all of them do. [00:20:18] Speaker A: Yes, they do. [00:20:19] Speaker D: Yeah, pretty much. [00:20:20] Speaker B: I think it's because a lot of [00:20:21] Speaker C: these issues go kind of hand in hand. You have really, really limited autonomy, and you usually have someone who's kind of just overbearing and holding those reins, and they have to. To keep you in line, so to say, somehow, which isn't great by any means. It's a lot of comorbidities and. [00:20:38] Speaker A: Of course. Yes, exactly. And that's a good word, comorbidities. Because, like, if you look at the mother, she's reinforcing this stuff despite being a woman. But she's like the women. She's like the. The matrons in the Handmaid's Tale. She was exposed to it, too. She was expected to perform. And if she paid the toll, you could be damn sure you're going to pay the toll. Too late, little lady. Right. [00:20:56] Speaker B: Honestly, I think it goes back to the whole Snoop, Snow White, weird mother daughter relationship thing. [00:21:02] Speaker A: Right, right, right, right, right, right. Fair enough. [00:21:04] Speaker D: See, I think for me, there was almost the three phases of patriarchal control showcased in this movie. Right? So we have the mother who is the old guard, the traditionalist, who has lived this way. And realistically, I think the film even goes so far as to show us that it's. It's more than just that she's lived this way. It's that she doesn't know any other way to exist. Because you have that really uncomfortable scene at the end where the younger daughter comes in and she's stealing jewelry and she, like, catches the stepmother giving that guy a blowjob. And it's this super uncomfortable, like, eye contact moment. But I feel like that sets up the tone that she literally doesn't know any other way to exist. Yeah, this is the only level of existence she's ever had. And she doesn't stop her daughters from leaving. [00:22:00] Speaker B: No. She thinks the only way her life and her situation is going to get better is through the advancement of her daughters. She's literally turning them into extensions of herself. So these girls have no agency. Elvira tries to take some. When she swallows the tapeworm, that is entirely her decision. That has nothing to do with her mom, she swallows it herself and she goes to the ball, and she has a beautiful nose, and she looks better than she's ever looked. Or she feels better than she's ever looked. [00:22:34] Speaker A: Which brings us. [00:22:34] Speaker B: And then. [00:22:35] Speaker A: Go ahead, go ahead. [00:22:36] Speaker B: And then, of course, it's not her story. [00:22:38] Speaker A: It's not her story. Which brings us to the point of societal pressure. Right. The Ugly Stepsister has it in spades. We've talked about it just now. But the other movie that has it, that lives with it, is the Lore. The Lore. [00:22:51] Speaker B: It's my favorite. [00:22:52] Speaker A: That's your favorite? Okay. [00:22:53] Speaker D: Has the most societal pressure of all of these movies. [00:22:56] Speaker B: It's maybe the Lore is one of the most creative, beautiful movies I've ever seen. [00:23:01] Speaker A: They all do. They all do. We were just talking about the Ugly Stepsister. It's all. That's all about getting married and finding a husband. Like, that's what you're supposed to do, right? Like, you know that's going to etra. Right? Like, yeah. [00:23:14] Speaker B: Trying so hard not to, like, freak out. [00:23:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I know. I know. It's okay. This is the place to do it, right? This is the topic. But the Lore, this is the moment. The Lore. Let's talk about the Lore. The Lore. [00:23:27] Speaker B: This movie lore. It's literally like the Bride, and it's over the top, crazy monster, beautiful, magic. [00:23:37] Speaker A: This is another movie that Adrian pushed me to watch really hard, and I'm really happy she did, because this is a unlike anything else I've watched. I've watched two Polish movies. I watched a film called White God, which is a revenge movie featuring a dog. And, like, the dog is getting revenge for, you know, his master getting killed. It's awesome. [00:23:55] Speaker B: Yes. Erica had the right response to that. [00:23:58] Speaker A: Epic reverse John Wick. Reverse John Wick predates John Wick by a fair bit. And of course, the Lore. So the Lore is a take on the Little Mermaid, of course, the Hans Christian Andersen penned, but obviously much older. Like all these things, fairy tale. Adrian, I think you should tell us about the Lore, because I keep introducing all the movies. [00:24:17] Speaker B: The Lore is a Polish modern retelling of the Little Mermaid, and it keeps all of the horrific but morbidly romantic ideals of the Little Mermaid and turns it into a horror music mermaid fest. [00:24:35] Speaker A: It is a musical. [00:24:36] Speaker B: It is 100%. All of the music sounds like gold prepped to me. It's kind of magic. [00:24:41] Speaker A: Yeah. And I. I suppose that it's like, you know, because here's the thing. A lot of this Disney shit is so old that they are cultural touchstones and iconic in their own right, whether you like them or not. It's impossible to talk about Peter Pan without thinking about. I mean, Tinkerbell from the Disney movie with her provocative little body and her noise that she makes. It's impossible to think about Cinderella without the bibbidi bobbidi boop. It's just. It's our culture as Americans, as people living in the unfortunate year of 2026. It's everywhere. So this being a musical and being about mermaids, but being, like, sexualized and violent and horrific is. It's satire, right? [00:25:26] Speaker C: It is, in the greatest sense, I think. [00:25:28] Speaker A: Yes. [00:25:29] Speaker B: Thank you, Erica. This was. This movie. I've been trying to get somebody to watch this movie for years. [00:25:34] Speaker A: You shouldn't have to try too hard. It's fucking great. [00:25:37] Speaker B: Thank you. Because I tried to get. It took me two years to get you to watch it. [00:25:40] Speaker A: I can be difficult. You tell me. You tell me something is great. And if you're too. If you're too effusive, I just go, I don't want to watch it now. [00:25:47] Speaker B: He doesn't like it when I get too excited. He gets like. And then he's like, oh, never mind. You're right. [00:25:52] Speaker A: Well, that's why. [00:25:53] Speaker B: Because he's the best. [00:25:55] Speaker A: Well, you know. So. Right. The lore. So the lore, of course, we have this nightclub where they do. I want to say burlesque. They do these. [00:26:03] Speaker B: It's more like cabaret. [00:26:04] Speaker A: Cabaret, thank you. That's the word. [00:26:06] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:26:07] Speaker A: They do this cabaret thing where they sing, they put on a show, they dance, and then the ladies take off their clothes. But it's all very artistic and beautiful and neat and, you know, salacious. And these mermaids are brought in and. I mean. Adrian, you want to talk about that scene where they first bring the murder? I. I was. First of all, I was kind of scared when I was watching it because I thought these girls were underage. I was like, oh, no. And I looked it up, and they're [00:26:33] Speaker B: in their 20s, so they are not under. They look super young, though, guys. And they're meant to, because that's part of the whole mermaid vibe. Exactly. [00:26:42] Speaker A: It's a movie about exploitation because. [00:26:45] Speaker C: Exactly. Like, basically, very well into that. [00:26:47] Speaker A: Yes. This. [00:26:48] Speaker B: Erica, what do you have to say about it? Yeah, please, I need you to talk about. [00:26:52] Speaker C: Sorry. I got super excited over this movie, too, because it is such an interesting retelling. Like, I definitely grew up with the Disney version and, like, those retellings that are very watered down. [00:27:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:06] Speaker C: So the older I Got. And the more that I learned that, you know, these tales aren't necessarily all sunshine and rainbows. It was interesting. And then being introduced to media that like fully explores the deep end of that side of the spectrum, no pun intended, was insane. I was not expecting this to be a musical. But I think that really offsets like the fun, campy light heartedness of these Disney esque sorts of movies. Really well. Because art doesn't always have to be polished and pretty and bright to be meaningful. [00:27:40] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:27:41] Speaker C: And us seeing like these gritty, sometimes a little off pitch songs helps play into that essence, I think. I like that the age of the girls is kind of ambiguous at first because there is that shock factor. Right. Like oh my God, what are they doing with what you assume is like children at first, legitimate children. And then it's like, okay, well these are young women and they're not even necessarily women. How are they going to exploit these beautiful creatures? Because that's what humans have a tendency to do is to take things we don't understand and try to profit off of it. [00:28:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:20] Speaker C: Until we destroy it. And if we can't profit off of it, we destroy it anyway. [00:28:28] Speaker B: I love you, Erica. [00:28:29] Speaker A: Very well said. Very well said. [00:28:31] Speaker D: Very well. [00:28:33] Speaker A: Let me think. So. Yeah. Societal pressure. I mean they come up and I'm not even sure why they come up. I suppose that it's part of their. It's just what they do at their [00:28:42] Speaker D: age implied that it's the musician, it's the music. Opening scene. They come up, they hear on the beach playing. [00:28:47] Speaker A: That's right. [00:28:48] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:28:48] Speaker B: It's the music. They're the mermaids like the music. [00:28:51] Speaker A: They like the music. Because mermaids themselves, Sirens are musical creatures. Yeah, exactly. [00:28:57] Speaker D: Song like her and her sisters were going up to the surface and singing and like. [00:29:03] Speaker A: Right, right, right, right. And yeah, they're brought into this world of cabaret and singing and it's like they, when they come above ground, they, they, they, they, they get like female bodies at least they get legs. They don't get like the reproductive organs. Right. [00:29:19] Speaker B: When they're not wet. [00:29:20] Speaker A: When they are not wet. Exactly. They add a little bit of water to them and boom. Fishtail. [00:29:25] Speaker B: Which like that Tom Hanks movie Splash but way darker. [00:29:29] Speaker A: Right. [00:29:29] Speaker D: I think I also appreciate that they didn't make the tails like the super pretty, more common fish tails. [00:29:37] Speaker B: Eels made me think of eels like [00:29:40] Speaker D: deep sea style fish tails. [00:29:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:43] Speaker D: Specifically deep ocean fish look very different than our higher surface animals. [00:29:49] Speaker C: Yes. [00:29:50] Speaker D: So that was fun. [00:29:50] Speaker A: And I mean, I mean this is of course The Monster Fucker Show. So, yeah, I mean, you know, guys, let's be honest. [00:29:56] Speaker B: We like love all of these monsters. There's like no cap, as my kids say. Is that what they say? I think that's what they say. [00:30:03] Speaker A: What was the word? [00:30:04] Speaker D: Absolutely. [00:30:04] Speaker A: What was the word? [00:30:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:05] Speaker A: Sociopath. [00:30:06] Speaker B: No, Cap. Sociopath. [00:30:07] Speaker A: Yes, that's a word you said, no cap. What's no cap? What's that? [00:30:11] Speaker B: It means no lying. That's how my son described it to me. The kids say no cap. Erica's laughing over here. She knows what I'm saying. Whatever she does, she literally knows. [00:30:22] Speaker A: Well, she's, you know. Yeah. [00:30:23] Speaker B: Did I use it right? [00:30:25] Speaker A: So the lore. Yeah. So obviously you. You have the two daughters. You have golden and Silver, right? [00:30:34] Speaker B: Yes, golden and Silver. [00:30:35] Speaker A: And golden is the one who likes the boy, right? [00:30:38] Speaker B: Yes. [00:30:38] Speaker C: And Silver's the cynical, mysterious one. [00:30:42] Speaker A: She meets another. She meets another. [00:30:45] Speaker D: Protective. [00:30:46] Speaker A: Yes. And she meets another. [00:30:47] Speaker C: As big sisters are. [00:30:48] Speaker A: And she meets another sea creature. He's like a cool looking punk guy. And. And like at first you don't know what's going on. He's like. He's like, oh, this scar is from a fisherman's hook. And you're like, he's one of them. That's cool. And he's explaining. He's like, don't you know, you should watch your sister. We're not of this world. We're just exploring, we're just hanging out. Like, if she wants to be with him, she's gonna have to give up her tail. And if he marries someone else, she's gonna turn into seafoam. Right. [00:31:13] Speaker B: Which is from the Hans Christian Andersen original. That and folklore. Yep. It's the straight up thing. Because mermaids technically aren't supposed to have souls, but they live forever unless they're killed. [00:31:26] Speaker A: That sounds like a very Christian thing to say, but that is. [00:31:29] Speaker B: Well, it was from. [00:31:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm just teasing you. [00:31:33] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:31:33] Speaker B: No, but it was Hans Christian Anderson and he did have those. [00:31:36] Speaker A: I mean, he's got Christian in his name. So. [00:31:38] Speaker B: Yeah, like religion lines. [00:31:41] Speaker D: The old world tales didn't portray it correct quite so rigidly. It was more of a. They weren't of the same existence as humans. But we get that with almost all other end creature stories. [00:31:56] Speaker B: Well, and it's even like Irish folktales. You have Undyne, for example, which is pretty much the exact same story where she marries this prince and she gets to live on land until he betrays her with someone else. [00:32:10] Speaker D: And. [00:32:11] Speaker B: And then she can either kill him or go back to the bottom of the ocean. [00:32:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:15] Speaker B: So those are your options as a woman. [00:32:16] Speaker A: Right. And like, that's the fun thing. So she's basically. So here's the thing. These mermaids are very pretty. I mean, you know, they're physically, by our standards, they're very pretty. They're very attractive. And like, people just sort of like them. Right. And it's like, here's the thing, because they're mermaids, they are eating people. They have to eat people. Yes. [00:32:34] Speaker B: Only one of them is eating people. [00:32:36] Speaker A: Really? [00:32:36] Speaker B: Golden doesn't eat anybody. Silver's the only one who embraces her mermaid like nature. And she's the only one that goes on the hunt and eats people because she knows that humans are not her people. They're food. [00:32:50] Speaker A: All right. I didn't pick up on it because of my facial blindness. So that's fair. Fair. Understood. Now, so. So golden goes to. Wait, golden is the good. Is the one that likes the boy. [00:33:01] Speaker B: Yes. I wouldn't call her the good one. [00:33:02] Speaker A: I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know. I agree. So golden likes the boy. She's like, I want to be. So I'm gonna give up my tail. I don't. I think this goes a little too far, but she undergoes a. Something right out of a Sam Raimi movie where they literally cut her in half. And then they cut a corpse in half and sew her to the corpse's legs. [00:33:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:23] Speaker C: Singing over that scene is insane. [00:33:25] Speaker A: It's great. Was it because they. [00:33:29] Speaker D: There's a scene where they actually show them putting the tail onto the corpse as well. [00:33:34] Speaker B: I know. [00:33:34] Speaker A: They gotta do something with it. I don't know. But yeah, so that happens. And then she shows it to her boyfri and she lifts up her dress to be like, let's do the sex. And he's. He's like, okay. But he's also kind of horrified by her stitches. And then she gets on top of him, or he gets on top of her and there's blood from her stitches. Yeah, yeah. And he just disgusted. And then he. There's like a bit of a time lapse. Time is a little weird because this movie is playing with your perceptions. It's very ephemeral. And he hooks up with, I think, [00:34:03] Speaker B: his sound person, his agent person that comes in to get him gigs. Yes. [00:34:10] Speaker A: That's what. Yeah, it's something like that. Someone in a functional role. And. Yeah. So her sister says, listen, he's marrying her now. You have one way out. You have to eat him or you're Going to turn into seafoam. And I don't want you to turn into seafoam because you're my sister and I love you and we need to go back to the water. And she goes, I don't know if I could do it. And she tries and she can't do it. And she just. She's holding him, they're hugging, and you see it happen. She turns into seafoam dancing. [00:34:32] Speaker D: That romantic moment. The music swells. [00:34:36] Speaker A: Yeah, it's very sad. [00:34:37] Speaker C: He didn't deserve that last moment of sweetness from her. [00:34:40] Speaker A: Nah, Cute. [00:34:41] Speaker D: Erica. [00:34:42] Speaker A: He didn't. [00:34:43] Speaker B: Fuck him. Like, fuck that flippant little motherfucker. [00:34:47] Speaker D: Other than in the Shape of Water, I don't think any of the men deserve their momentary bliss creeps. [00:34:53] Speaker B: Except for Shape of Water. You write. [00:34:55] Speaker A: Well, I mean. I mean, like, you know, if you're talking about, like, Eliza's gay, gay best friend, I mean, but she's in love [00:35:02] Speaker B: with the prince who turns out to be a toy. Total nightmare. Like, Elvira in the Ugly Stepsister didn't need to end up with him either. He was terrible because she had these ideas of him. But then you find out he's actually just gross. He's gross. [00:35:17] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:35:17] Speaker A: Well, let's talk about the Shape of [00:35:18] Speaker B: Water walking Red Flag and the Shape of Water. [00:35:21] Speaker D: The scene in the woods is all I needed. [00:35:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:25] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:35:25] Speaker D: Feels like I don't fucking care if he writes pretty poetry. Red Flag. [00:35:29] Speaker A: He's like. He's like, would you fuck that? I'd rather fuck a pig. Big. You know, like gross. [00:35:33] Speaker C: You know, be willing to bet he has a Ghost Rider anyway. [00:35:37] Speaker B: Probably. [00:35:37] Speaker A: He lets Claude write his poetry for him, you know? Yeah, he's got. He's got like. Like a computer that runs on like. Like a. A hydroelectric thing, like gdp. [00:35:48] Speaker B: Guys, these movies are so special to me. The fact that you guys are like, this is the best. I'm just gonna say thank you. [00:35:55] Speaker A: Yeah, well, no, it definitely. Which probably means we should probably talk about toxic masculinity. Right? Because, I mean, like. [00:36:02] Speaker D: Like, there's a lot of good toxic masculinity in these movies. [00:36:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I want to go to the Shape of Water, but we're still talking about the lore. I mean, you know, should we stick with the lore? [00:36:13] Speaker B: No, let's go to the Shape of Water because we don't want to give away the whole lore anyway, because somebody's gonna have to watch this masterpiece of a fucking film. [00:36:20] Speaker A: I just want to say, even if we give away plot details, endings, it doesn't matter. These movies are all vibes that need to be experienced. [00:36:27] Speaker D: Very different. I think seeing it. [00:36:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Especially the lore. The lore can't be spoiled. [00:36:33] Speaker D: There's no. [00:36:33] Speaker A: Just watch it. [00:36:34] Speaker D: There's no way that we can describe [00:36:36] Speaker A: the Ugly Stepsister is unlike anything you'll watch. Like, it's just. No, it's in a league of its own, really. You know, so it really is the Shape of Water. You've probably seen this movie or you've seen the memes about it. It's a masterpiece. I don't care what you say. You know, I have the Creature from the Black Lagoon here. He's a total bro. He's very cute. Waiting for that Transformer. A crossover. It'll happen. I already have Dracula and Frankatron. So. That being said, it's the movie of a death. Sorry. Of a mute girl who works at a top secret government facility with her best friend, Octavia Butler, who's phenomenal. She's very good. She. [00:37:17] Speaker B: Yeah, she's really cute in it. [00:37:18] Speaker A: She's very good in general. Like, Hidden Figures is a movie I watched. Not a great movie, but she is fudgeing great in it. Like, she is something else, you know, [00:37:27] Speaker C: I think she's a wonderful actress, and she was really, really cute in this movie. I'm used to seeing her in more serious roles and she just. Yeah. The whole time. [00:37:35] Speaker B: And she's just precious. [00:37:37] Speaker A: She's really. [00:37:38] Speaker B: It was nice to see her be soft. [00:37:40] Speaker A: So we should probably say also that the Shape of Water is a Guillermo del Toro movie. I always say his name wrong. Adrian, go ahead. [00:37:47] Speaker B: Guillermo del Toro. [00:37:48] Speaker A: Beautiful. So, yeah, so there we go. Probably my favorite living director. Easy. Like, no contest. Like, a lot of the things that his Frankenstein was attempting. This movie succeeded. First. It's a masterful movie. [00:38:03] Speaker C: We were saying earlier, this one is the one that is less of, like, a direct retelling and more so, I'd say, of like, an amalgamation from which it draws inspiration. I would definitely say. Still say there's some Little Mermaid esque aspects in there, but we do get a lot of similarities to, like, the Creature from the Black Lagoon and that creates this very visually striking and emotionally rich story. I think Eliza is a very complex character, and her being mute just amplifies that, I think, because she has to learn how to communicate with other people in means that are still effective, but almost on, like, their terms a lot of the time. So it's very humanizing to see these sorts of struggles for her and that segues well into the relationship. That she establishes with the subject, the creature in the facility, so to say, because they have a lot of the, a lot of the same underlying struggles. [00:39:10] Speaker A: True. So, yeah, she works, she work. Very well said again. She, yeah, there is a creature that's brought in and she doesn't get to see said creature until Michael Shannon, who's in charge of the thing. And he's, he's psychopath, hyper fixated government man, sadistic, you know. Yeah. [00:39:29] Speaker D: The personification of toxic masculinity. [00:39:32] Speaker B: Toxic masculinity is what toxic masculinity looks like. Like in every way, shape, form and fashion. [00:39:38] Speaker A: He's abusive, he's violent, he's possessive. His sex life is disgusting. You actually see him having sex with his wife and it's fucking gross. [00:39:46] Speaker B: Like he won't let her speak. It's horrific. Like, you know, he's injured. I know, yeah. [00:39:53] Speaker A: Because the monster bites his fingers off because he's abusing. [00:39:56] Speaker D: It's the rotting fingers and he's like. [00:39:58] Speaker A: She's like, so, so that's the thing about his depiction that I love the most. All these alpha male types, they all crawl on their knees before somebody, right? Whether it's Andrew Tate or it's Jordan Peterson or Donald Trump and Michael Shannon. He acts like a bad motherfucker. But when the, when the general comes around, he's on his hands and knees, he's kissing his boots. You know, when the general tells him like, you failed, you're going to be wiped out for what you've done. You're worth nothing. And he's like, but I did everything you asked of me since Korea. He's like, huh? And you fucked up. Get out there and find, find our fucking specimen before the Russians do, you know? And that general, who's also a scum fuck, he probably crawls on his knees before the President or something. They worship power and that's all they understand. Right, Adrian? Good. [00:40:47] Speaker B: Well, I just wanted to make a little teeny tiny thing about the Russians. [00:40:51] Speaker A: Sure. [00:40:51] Speaker B: One of the actors playing the main Russian guy that the scientist has to, you know, give information to, that is Nigel Bennett from Forever Night. And he is magical. He is Lacroix. He's the Nightcrawler. He's the, he's one of my favorite. [00:41:09] Speaker A: He's the, he's the, he's the, he's the Count Dracula of that show. [00:41:12] Speaker B: He is the Count Dracula of that show. He's magical. And getting to see him in anything was amazing. And the fact that he was in an Academy Award winning film was like Mind blowing. [00:41:23] Speaker A: Because forever night, monster fangs, Breakdown coming soon. You know. Seriously, no lie. Yeah, I love so I. No cap. So I. I love this movie to death. So she sees the monster because she's brought in to clean up after Michael Shannon gets his fingers ripped off. And she sees him and she's like, what's this? And she realizes that he can understand her. And she starts bringing him eggs and playing music for him and teaching him how to say music like that, you know, or. No, it's like that. And he does it back. He picks up that she's being kind to him and she's being nice to him. And there's this incredible scene where she's dancing because she loves to watch dancing and music on the tv. [00:42:04] Speaker B: She watches old Gene Kelly films. Not. It's actually. And like Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire. And she has these amazing imaginary things where she and her gay best friend are, like, having these dance scenes. And then when she falls in love with the creature, it's her and the creature. It's like. That's how she expresses things, is through this imaginary. [00:42:27] Speaker A: It's a wonderful scene. They're sitting together. He's just at the table going like. And she starts fantasizing about being able to sing to him. And. Yeah, it turns black and white. And she's expressive and explosive. And she's dancing and he's dancing and she's wearing a glorious dress and she's moving her back body and he's dancing. And then it comes back down and they're just in their dingy apartment and it's leaking. And by the way. By the way, this has turned into the shape of water fucking, you know, glazing session. But like, you know, the green, the. The motif. The visual motif of the green to make you think of seawater in the Amazon. It's just everywhere, the peeling wallpaper. Michael Shannon's car. I'm sorry. [00:43:13] Speaker B: Fuck. Michael Shannon's car. Michael Shannon's car. [00:43:17] Speaker A: So, by the way, when he's buying that car, the salesman, he says, power steel steering, power this, power that. And it's just like, that's. That's what he really cares about, right? [00:43:27] Speaker B: That's. [00:43:28] Speaker A: He's like, I don't like the green. He goes, teal. [00:43:32] Speaker B: Yes. Now, I also like how when they're in her imagination dancing or they're having these little moments, neither one of them can speak to other people. Like, she's mute. She has no voice, right? And it's a whole thing. And he is also a creature and has no voice. But they managed to find this amazing way to, like, interact and communicate and understand each other. And that's why I think in her head, those dancing scenes, it's like. Yeah. Them kind of communicating without words. So I'm like art. [00:44:06] Speaker A: So I think Del Toro appeals to me so much. And you're right, Adrian. Of course Del Toro appeals to me so much because he. He doesn't just humanize monsters. He uses them as a conduit to talk about oppression. You know, all of us here are queer. All of us here, like the monster and Eliza, their relationship can be taken as a gay allegory, an interracial romance allegory. It could be taken in any number of ways. And all those quadrants are presented as well. Right. I guess there aren't any interracial relationships, but, I mean, I guess there's interspecies, [00:44:39] Speaker B: but, like, you know, we inter species is even more. [00:44:43] Speaker A: Yeah, that's something that was very. I. I don't even. Was miscegenation legal in the 50s? I don't think so. Yeah. So there you go. You wouldn't see it. [00:44:52] Speaker B: It wasn't. I don't think it was until. I'm gonna say the 70s, but I could be wrong. [00:44:57] Speaker A: I'm not sure. [00:44:57] Speaker D: I believe it was the 70s, but it wasn't popularized, really, until, like, the mid-80s. [00:45:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:03] Speaker D: You saw it happening more. [00:45:04] Speaker A: You have that horrific scene where our supporting character. I don't know the actor's name, but the older gay best friend who paints. He reminds me a lot of the old man in Amelie, actually, who never leaves and paints what he sees. [00:45:16] Speaker B: You know, so much of the movie reminds me of Amelie from the color palette. The music, the music, the music, the dancing, them watching movies together. Like, so much of it, I feel like was entirely influenced by Amelie. And I'm glad you brought that up. [00:45:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, definitely. There's a lot going on. But what did I want to say? Allegory. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That horrific scene where he. He goes into this diner all the time, and there's, like, a young guy who he talks to, and the young guy's nice to him, and they have a very pleasant thing. And he says, like, oh, yeah, I know why you come in here. You come in here for the conversation. You know, a little pie, a little good pie and a little conversation. And he's like, yeah, I love talking to you. He's like, I like talking to you too. And he reaches for his hand. He's like, what are you doing, buster? Don't Touch me. What the fuck is wrong with you? And then a black couple walks in and he's like, hey, hey, what are you doing? Take out. Only those seats are reserved. And they're like, oh, it's man doing the whole racist segregation turn. They turn around. They fucking leave. And then he's like, you better go to Mr. This is a family establishment. Because if you're gay, you can't. You shouldn't be around kids. And maybe that guy had a. Had a gay panic moment because maybe he is in the closet to himself. I don't know. But I think highlighting those two things establishes that those themes are at play there. Is it too far? I don't think so. Right. Because that is a reality of life in the 50s and to an extent today as well. It just is. [00:46:42] Speaker B: Right, well, so is Michael Shannon's character entirely. [00:46:46] Speaker A: Good old. Good old Michael Shannon's character. So on there. [00:46:49] Speaker B: Michael Shannon is so relevant today. [00:46:51] Speaker A: There are two myths that are evoked in this movie. One of them is the myth of Tantalus, and the other one is Samson. We can talk about that. Maybe we should fixate on that, Marissa. Talk about the Yakuruna. [00:47:04] Speaker D: Okay, so this was the original, like, folklore, myth, whatever you would like to call it. Technically, it's mythology. By definition, it's all the same thing, but it's Amazonian. And they were an underwater civilization basically, and they were fishmen. And in some of the mythology they could shapeshift, and some of the mythology they couldn't. But the general description was a green scaled fish man who would journey to the surface to find mates and partners to then bring back to their watery kingdom and live there in their society. And they were revered as gods, which this movie does a wonderful job at referencing. There's the shot at the end of the movie where the guy, like, has a rock on him and he stands up and he starts glowing and he's like, they were right. [00:47:53] Speaker A: You are. [00:47:55] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [00:47:56] Speaker D: So I really personally appreciated that because you can tell Del Toro did his research. He didn't just give us Black Lagoon regurgitated into a love story. Although in interviews, he did say that his goal was to give the creature from the Black Lagoon its happy ending. [00:48:15] Speaker A: Yeah, well, that's his favorite movie. [00:48:16] Speaker D: That was an intention. [00:48:18] Speaker A: That's his favorite movie, full stop. That's his favorite movie. He loves that movie. Like, he says that that scene where you first see the monster and he's swimming underwater. One of the greatest scenes in cinematic history. And. [00:48:28] Speaker D: Right. [00:48:29] Speaker A: I mean, look again. For me, it's when the Frankenstein monster walks out backwards and then turns around and faces the camera and then looks and sees the light coming through and reaches for it. Like, there's no telling what's going to set you off on your creative trajectory. Right. Erica, what spoke to you about this movie? [00:48:45] Speaker C: I think, like I said, it's very visually striking. There's lots of very well done scenes in the sense of, like, lighting and atmosphere. I think my personal favorite is the bathroom scene. [00:48:58] Speaker A: It's wonderful. [00:48:59] Speaker C: The timing is fun, right? It's so emotionally charged. It's so beautiful. And then the neighbor coming by and being, like, just opening the door. All the water rushes out and he just stands there like I'm interrupting something. I'm in the wrong here. My bad. [00:49:18] Speaker A: You know, that's the thing, like a movie like this, because they want you to feel the joy of the characters. And it is a sad movie to a degree. It has a happy ending. Yes, but it's a sad movie. There's a lot of nastiness in it. And they give you this moment of not just beauty, but happiness. And it's something you've never seen before. Like, yeah, Rom com. They have the scene where they go to the carnival or whatever. Like. Or they're on the Ferris wheel or. [00:49:43] Speaker B: That's not romantic. This movie is actually romantic because it's like this crazy emotional connection where they've already. She's already risked everything to, like, save him in the first place just because they understand each other and. Yeah, because she's kind, like, kindness man. And then he's like. When she's like, oh. It's like, yeah, yeah. [00:50:06] Speaker C: That's how I felt the entire time watching it. [00:50:09] Speaker B: You go, girl. [00:50:10] Speaker A: It's. [00:50:10] Speaker B: You are so. She is one of the few characters where, like, she is flawless. Like, it's like, you go, girl. Like, yes, you get it. [00:50:20] Speaker A: You want to talk about agency. When she's trying to convince her friends to help her save the monster, she's like, repeat what I say. [00:50:27] Speaker C: That's another great scene. [00:50:29] Speaker A: So good. And he walks away and she bangs on the wall because she doesn't make sound. She doesn't express that level of anger, but she does there, and it makes him sound stop. You know, and she's like, you know, like, repeat, repeat, repeat. And it's so good. And yeah, I mean, like, agency is so great in this movie because that is what she's doing. And I think that, like, the element of objectification, which we've touched on here and there, it goes towards the monster. But it also goes towards her because there's that scene where Michael Shannon spills the water and she comes into multiple scenes. [00:51:01] Speaker B: He literally sexually harassed a creeper. [00:51:04] Speaker A: He's a monster. [00:51:05] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. He. [00:51:06] Speaker D: One scene where he's like. And I bet you wouldn't even make any sound. [00:51:10] Speaker C: That when he said he could make her squawk, I wanted to vomit. [00:51:16] Speaker A: It's pretty horrible, dude. [00:51:18] Speaker B: I don't think I've loved and hated a character like Michael Shannon is perfect in this movie. He's phenomenal. And I fucking hate his character so much. He is probably one of the worst but most effective versions I've ever seen of what that kind of guy looks like. And we all know him. We all know him. [00:51:39] Speaker A: Yeah, sadly. Is the egg a female? I'm just kidding. [00:51:45] Speaker B: You were gonna go there. [00:51:47] Speaker A: I wrote it down with a question mark and then in a laughing face. I like the troll. All right, let's see. Oh, I wrote kindness. I wrote gag analogy. Oh, I wrote gay analogy. Okay. Power somehow. What's the. What the. Did I write Teal? A good man proving himself. Okay, Okay. I think. I think we actually covered everything. That's great. Oh, these are all Megatron notes. Okay. All right. So what didn't we talk about? Where should we go? Where we hit an hour. We crossed the hour. And of course, editing will take it down. But what didn't we talk about? What do we want to bring up? It needs to be said. Snow White. A tale of terror is funnily enough. It's in the same universe as Star Trek. Deep Space Nine. The dog's name is Odo. It's a shapeshifter. [00:52:35] Speaker B: Don't even talk to me right now. [00:52:36] Speaker A: He's a shapeshifter. He's the dog. [00:52:38] Speaker B: Odo is my favorite character from DC9, and they probably were actually making a nod to that, but we. No, no, no. [00:52:45] Speaker A: Was Sigourney ever in Star Trek? [00:52:47] Speaker B: No. [00:52:47] Speaker A: She was an alien. That's the same thing, right? [00:52:49] Speaker B: I don't know. Ask Michael Shannon. [00:52:51] Speaker D: Who's. [00:52:51] Speaker B: You guys can conversation about that. [00:52:53] Speaker A: Let's see. Sam, Neil's in Snow White. We didn't mention that. That's pretty cool. I was like, justin, are there any dinosaurs? He's like, I just saw 10 of them. They're all chickens. But, you know. [00:53:01] Speaker D: Did you want to express your distaste with a lack of a kiss? [00:53:06] Speaker A: No, not really. Because you are correct. I read the original Grim, and it wasn't added, you know, so. No, not really. [00:53:13] Speaker D: Well, I think it was also specifically Going back to the whole autonomy, I think, in some extent eliminating that need for a man to save her because it didn't matter who shook her. [00:53:29] Speaker A: Is that so? [00:53:30] Speaker D: Somebody shaking her is what causes apple to dislodge? [00:53:33] Speaker A: I guess so. [00:53:34] Speaker B: Someone that really cared about her to shake her like that. [00:53:37] Speaker A: I just wish that guy was better established as someone important to her. But yeah, I suppose so. [00:53:43] Speaker D: But again, I think that was done intentionally because it wasn't about that. It wasn't about that. She didn't need to necessarily be saved. She just needed to cough up the apple. [00:53:54] Speaker A: She seemed to cough up the apple. Right. I think that's so. I think I can get behind that reading again. It's one of those things where I would probably just love this movie unconditionally, but I watched it in the context of all these other, like, Academy Award winning, like, classic like or otherwise movies. [00:54:11] Speaker B: So, you know, you also didn't watch it in high school in 1998 when it came out like a hundred million times. [00:54:20] Speaker A: Oh, by the way, by the way, by the way. [00:54:22] Speaker D: Hiding in the other room where my mother can't know that I'm watching it. [00:54:26] Speaker A: That's funny. Can we highlight the creepy. [00:54:29] Speaker B: And when you were a kid, can [00:54:30] Speaker A: we highlight the creepy medieval wedding where after they've consummated the marriage, they're laying in bed naked and it. And you know, the. The priest and the. The character. [00:54:39] Speaker D: Historically accurate creepy wedding. [00:54:42] Speaker A: It's gross. I don't like it. [00:54:44] Speaker C: I don't like that. [00:54:45] Speaker D: Yeah, that was. How else do you know that they actually consummated the marriage and it's official. [00:54:51] Speaker A: I buy it. I buy it. Yeah. No, no, no, I'm. I'm on board with all that stuff. I agree. That stuff is all really cool. [00:54:56] Speaker D: You know, as a matter of fact, usually a priest would. [00:54:59] Speaker C: Some people were just kinks on the others. [00:55:03] Speaker A: Yeah, well, they. They were the royalty, Erica. Right. So, you know, it's not illegal. [00:55:08] Speaker C: Watch people get frisky on their wed. Because I can't do it. [00:55:12] Speaker B: I hate it here. [00:55:13] Speaker C: I hate it here. [00:55:14] Speaker B: Where's the popcorn, yo? [00:55:16] Speaker D: Yes. [00:55:17] Speaker A: It's in the 19th century, you know. [00:55:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You mean like we are period correct priorities, right? [00:55:25] Speaker A: No, no, no. Well, that's what I told Adrian when I first started watching the movie because I watched it in two shifts. I watched like half of it and then I picked up the. I just re. I just watched the whole thing today, but was kind of fascinating to watch. Just a straight. Somewhat of a straight adaptation of a fairy tale because like, these types of things do thrive on reinvention and adaptation, especially when we are making these stories hundreds of years later to express more things that we are allowed to express as opposed to just reinforcing the oppressive structures that we live beneath. Right. So it was weird to just watch something that felt like it was trying to recreate the era the movie was depicting. Right? Which is why Marissa really liked it. Like, for me, it was. It was more interesting than great. A compelling movie, though. Like, don't let. Don't let my fucking edgy opinions dissuade you. You need to watch this movie. [00:56:18] Speaker D: I'm just a folklore freak. [00:56:20] Speaker A: And if you're a folklore freak, folklore gets me going. If you're a folklore freak and you are a. What's the word? A traditionalist. With this kind of stuff, you really can't go wrong. I mean, it's better than the recent Disney movie with the CGI dwarves, where the fairest of them all means she doesn't cheat at board games. Like, all this Gnarriskite, you know, Mirror [00:56:40] Speaker D: Mirror is better than that. [00:56:42] Speaker B: Okay, but Tar Sim did that, and he did the fall. And I'm gonna say his costumes will make anything better. Like, it elevates things on a level that the acting's bad. Who cares? They have really cool masks. [00:56:56] Speaker A: Wait, you're talking about the recent Disney movie? [00:56:59] Speaker B: It came out a few years ago. I say a few. [00:57:02] Speaker A: No, no, no. You're talking about Mirror Mirror. [00:57:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:04] Speaker A: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mirror Mirror came out the same time as Snow White and the Huntsman, sadly. [00:57:09] Speaker D: But between the two, it was definitely, I think, the better one. Also, it at least was willing to explore some of these, like, intense topics that we're talking about. [00:57:20] Speaker A: Did it have seven Dwarfs? [00:57:22] Speaker D: It did. [00:57:23] Speaker A: It did. By the way. By the way. By the way. By the way, does it. [00:57:27] Speaker B: I think. I think Peter Dinklage was in it. [00:57:29] Speaker D: I think he might have been. [00:57:31] Speaker A: By the way, does anyone else, like, fantasize about JRR Tolkien and Walt Disney and, hell, arguing over the correct pronunciation [00:57:38] Speaker B: of dwarf Only when J.K. rowling's there to, like, scream her opinion? [00:57:45] Speaker A: Well, no, no, because, like. Like Tolkien in the Hobbit, it's either the Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings. I think it's the. I think it's the Hobbit, because there's this long. Crap. That's okay. I'll edit him out. What was I saying? That was awesome. So. No, listen, in the preface for the Hobbit, he's explaining why he chose Certain spellings. And he says that dwarfs is not the ancient way to say it. It's dwarves and elves. And I didn't realize that, like, Disney was doing it wrong all those decades later. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I was like, oh, wait, it stowed in the Seven Dwarfs. So I just imagined them like. He's like, listen, you're a fucking idiot. You called your movie Stow it in the Seven Dwarfs. And he's like, I. I made a bunch of money. I created a company, Alphabet. He's like, I'm the fucking, you know, professor emeritus at Oxford. Like, I created the Lord of the Rings. And I'm gonna tell you that you're an idiot. It doesn't matter how much money you made. You're dead, and I'm dead, and you're gonna listen. And I just imagine them going back and forth forever, you know? [00:58:51] Speaker B: Yeah, but do you. Tolkien's in hell. [00:58:53] Speaker A: Well, I guess not. Yeah, I mean, he was Catholic, so. [00:58:59] Speaker D: Okay. [00:59:00] Speaker A: But we're not a very pro religion podcast. I'm just kidding. Like, no one's in hell. I just imagine this. Like, whatever. [00:59:06] Speaker B: No, that's why J.K. rowling has to be there. [00:59:09] Speaker A: She's not exactly. She's not welcome here. She's not welcome in this pie. Her and Neil Gaiman could go fuck each other. Like, I hate them. [00:59:16] Speaker B: I just did that. Yep, I'm having. [00:59:18] Speaker A: All right, let's see, what did we miss? Generational trauma for evil stepmother. Marissa already talked about that. Maternal jealousy. We covered that. Mental health. I mean, this is even worth going into deeper. We talked about it a lot. [00:59:31] Speaker D: I mean, you could. I will say there was something about the way that the ugly stepsister portrayed the spiral and the insanity that she experienced, like, from the beginning, when she's just, like, slowly becoming aware that she's less attractive and needs to fix herself to the end, where her need for perfection becomes this spiraling, pathological, like, psychological trauma almost, where she becomes willing to do any. Anything to get the prince, but the prince almost feels more like a metaphor for perfection. [01:00:10] Speaker A: Adrian. Adrian. Adrian. Adrian. Adrian. You're not recording. Leave, Leave and come back. And then. And then just hold. [01:00:17] Speaker D: She's already gone. [01:00:18] Speaker A: She knows she gets it. I wonder why that's happening. It said due to a. Due to a call. [01:00:22] Speaker D: So I don't know, maybe she had, [01:00:24] Speaker A: like, a. I don't know. Give it a minute. Give it a minute. Give it a minute. There. Now you're recording again. Okay. It's okay. So it's all very magical and we're having great. A great time. All right, so what were you going to say? [01:00:35] Speaker B: I was going to say, like, the body dysmorphia whole thing about the ugly stepsister and the way they deal with that and the mental, like, health aspect of it, I think was brutal and honest with the whole, like I said, like, her getting her nose broken was not her choice. Like, her mother was telling her how not pretty she was, and she becomes obsessed with it because she has this idea of what she wants her future to be. The prince that she wants to get, like, and this idea where she's beautiful, she can be the one. [01:01:08] Speaker A: Right. [01:01:08] Speaker B: But she doesn't have a fairy godmother, so her nose gets broken and she decides, okay, this is where my mom's putting me on. Let's do it. And you're right, Marissa. Her mental health spirals super bad. And the way that she sees her health, I mean, sees herself and. And the way she actually looks are two completely different things. And that is, like, textbook body dysmorphia. [01:01:30] Speaker A: The beautiful people. The beautiful people. It's all relative. [01:01:34] Speaker D: I think it does an excellent job at using the prince as a metaphor for that need to be perfect that almost gets, like, burned into some of us. [01:01:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, she doesn't even. Like, there's nothing that she likes about him. She just. All she knows is that's what she's aiming for and she's going to get it. God damn it. Yeah. [01:01:52] Speaker B: Yeah, that's exactly it. [01:01:54] Speaker D: Whatever it takes. [01:01:55] Speaker A: It's an ideal. [01:01:56] Speaker D: Yeah, I agree. And I think the way that they dealt with her coming out of that especially, it was my least favorite part of the movie. But the removal of the tapeworm. [01:02:07] Speaker A: She'll be back, right? The removal of the tapeworm, that was just. [01:02:10] Speaker D: Yes. Just, like, it being pulled out of her and the way it almost looked like intestines and then the birds, like, fighting over this visceral metaphor for what she just went through and that she's finally, like, it's finally clicked, and she's finally realizing it was never worth it, it was never achievable. Because that's not. [01:02:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Like, what's. What's the point if you're just going to tear yourself apart and reduce yourself [01:02:41] Speaker D: to, you know, like, I almost go so far as that. The ending where her and her sister are, like, fleeing and, like, they don't necessarily get a happily ever after. Right. Nobody gets a happily ever after. We even get the corpse scene in the end where Cinderella's father's corpse is like, dried up and rotting. [01:03:04] Speaker C: Right. They never took care of him like they were supposed to. [01:03:08] Speaker A: Right. [01:03:09] Speaker D: And it almost like begs the question of was there ever a happy ending to be found? [01:03:14] Speaker C: Right. Or is it? I think, by and large, no. I think no. And that's supposed to be the vibe. Right? Everything is kind of hopeless until you have the means to make it not so hopeless. [01:03:27] Speaker A: There you go. [01:03:27] Speaker D: I mean, I think in that way, the younger sister's character is maybe the most powerful. [01:03:34] Speaker C: Honestly, I thought she was a very interesting character for how little we see her just with how, like, nonchalant isn't quite the right word. Almost like reserved. She focuses on, like, herself and what's going to bring her pleasure while she still has time to focus on that. It's almost like she knows that she. This isn't going to last forever, so she should enjoy it while she can. Or at least figure out a means to prolong that menstruation. [01:04:03] Speaker D: Like attempting to prolong while she tries to not end up like her sister. [01:04:08] Speaker A: Yeah. The trap of a femininity. Right. Imposed femininity. [01:04:13] Speaker D: Something about her that I think, although we didn't see much of her, she was almost like the sounding board of the entire story where you get to see all these concepts and how it could have turned out. [01:04:25] Speaker C: Like seeing her at the end, that made me feel a little hopeful because the implication there for me was almost, well, like, doubly so. Feminine support. Right. She's coming to get her sister out of this mess that she dug herself into. But there's also like that message of, you have the strength within yourself. You can build community. You don't have to build up to the expectations of other people. Especially like men who only want certain things from you. [01:04:55] Speaker D: Exactly. [01:04:56] Speaker C: There's a different path forward. Just follow your little sister. She's been following the trail less wandered this entire time. [01:05:04] Speaker D: Right. And it was kind of like, you're finally ready. [01:05:07] Speaker C: Yes, exactly. [01:05:08] Speaker D: I promise this is going to be better. [01:05:10] Speaker C: Yes. [01:05:11] Speaker A: And there you have it. Well, looks like Adrian died for real. I don't know what happened, but I haven't heard from her. [01:05:16] Speaker D: Maybe her computer wasn't plugged in. [01:05:20] Speaker A: I don't know. It said that. It said that she stopped recording due to a call. I don't know what that means. She's on her computer, so I have no idea, but I don't know. Well said. Is there anything else to say about these movies or should we go into wrap up? [01:05:34] Speaker D: I can't think of anything that we didn't cover that I wanted to talk about. [01:05:38] Speaker A: All right, let me. Let me. Let me go over the quadrants. I don't. I don't know. I. You know, these worked for the previous two episodes. Abuse, societal pressure, toxic masculinity, Motherhood agency. We didn't really. Because it's really just Snow White. Right. [01:05:53] Speaker D: I briefly talked about the stepmother. [01:05:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:56] Speaker D: And, like, her role and, like, the old guard vibe. [01:06:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:01] Speaker D: But I really think that was the only other example of motherhood in these movies, unfortunately. [01:06:07] Speaker A: Okay. So objectification. But I think we've talked about all these things, so I think the only thing left to do is. What was your favorite of these four movies? [01:06:14] Speaker D: Snow White. But we already said that. [01:06:17] Speaker A: We already said that. I mean, everyone knows I love the Shape of Water. [01:06:20] Speaker C: Water. Yes. The Shape of Water upturned the lure for me. [01:06:25] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah. The lore is like the other end of the extreme that the Shape of Water is, you know, like, they're both murky. [01:06:32] Speaker C: I love them equally for different reasons. [01:06:34] Speaker A: Yeah. They are both very good movies. [01:06:36] Speaker D: They're very good. Like, I think all of the movies were very good. [01:06:38] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. I think Adrian's is the lore. I could be dead wrong, though. I don't know. [01:06:42] Speaker D: I think that's what she said in the messages earlier. [01:06:45] Speaker A: So. Yeah, watch all four or, you know, you will miss out. That being said, those are our four movies. Those are our picks, and I encourage you to watch all four of them. This is, of course, the Demon Toast podcast. We are a subsidiary of Death Wish Poetry magazine. Do check out Avalanche. That's, you know, our most recent issue. We will most likely have open mic nights digitally starting next month, so that'll be fun. We have a workshop that happens every Tuesday at 8:00pm I'm King Loki, alias Daniel Sokoloff. It's Old Norse for Daniel Sokolov. Check out my [email protected]. not a big deal. Do so, though, or I'll come for you. Erica, what you got? [01:07:27] Speaker C: Like Dan said earlier, I write sometimes a lot more consistently as of late because it's National Poetry Month. You can find me over at Monstrum Exemplum. I have posted every day this month, so there's actually stuff for you to read now. [01:07:42] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, that's. That's Erica's Instagram. Do follow that link. Link below. Link below. Anything else? [01:07:47] Speaker C: I also revived my cat's Instagram because we got a kitten recently. So it's not lover boy chunks anymore. It's Double Chunk Oreos. If you want to go look at a 20 pound cat and his 8 pound sister getting into shenanigans. [01:08:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Link below. Do follow that. I don't know why I'm not following that. I totally forgot. I think the last time you said it's because I haven't uploaded part two yet. [01:08:08] Speaker D: As soon as I get off. [01:08:09] Speaker A: Yeah, right. Marissa, of course. Well you do your own plugs. [01:08:14] Speaker D: Works for me. So I am like Daniel said, I write, I do photography. I do both like cover art and also general photography and photography art. So like if there's anything anybody ever wants, you can always hit me up. We can try to make something and I also co run the Horror Art Film Society with Adrienne who is not here. If you are interacting with us on our social media you are probably talking to me most of the time. I try to handle most of our publications. Anytime you have questions, I'm your go to person. And if you can't reach me on the page you can also personally message me because I will always answer that and I think I covered everything. Oh I have a substack too which I have recently started posting on more. The primary one is mostly poetry but I did just start a book recommendation one yesterday that I have been thinking about doing because I love my weird obscure literature and it will all be featured on there eventually. But yeah, that's about it I think. [01:09:15] Speaker A: Yeah. And you know that reminds me that we have opened our substack for submission. So if you. You know, if you write essays or you want to write book reviews or you want to. I mean it's a good place for short stories. Also King Luki's Creep show. Creep is spelled with a K. Just. Just query us. Honestly, it's not a big deal. Me or Jack will get to it. Jack Brennan's our. Our incredible editor. Also a brilliant writer. That's all I have for you. So on that note, watch these movies, check out the links and write poetry, make art and love your demons. Ave Saitanas. Sam. Sa. Sa.