Interview: Jack Brennan's Spring Edition Writing

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, welcome to the Demon Toast podcast. I'm King Loki, the editor of Death Wish Poetry magazine, and with me is one of our editors. We've got Jack Brennan here. What's up, dude? [00:00:12] Speaker B: I am doing very well today. [00:00:14] Speaker A: You've come back for more torment, going for punishment. [00:00:16] Speaker B: Always coming back. [00:00:17] Speaker A: Always coming back. Right? Yeah. So obviously, Jack was on a previous episode, and as previously mentioned, he's one of our editors here, but Jack's also a writer, a very, very, very talented writer, and we've. We've published quite a few of his things, which is partly why he's one of our editors, because of his, you know, mad skills at writing gothic and sexy. Very witty stories and poetry, incidentally. So we like the spotlight writers on our podcast and platform. So here we are. Jack, how is your weekend going? [00:00:49] Speaker B: It's going as well as any other weekend. You know, just wake up, do some work, eat some food and go to bed. Rent, repeat till you die. [00:00:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:00:58] Speaker B: As the now the grain of sand down the hourglass of my life. [00:01:03] Speaker A: Another day, another 25 cents. Cool. So in the spring edition, we. We had two of your stories. The very morose and beautiful Bloody Mary and more sexy and morbid Song of Sodom, Both stories with biblical roots. Is that a genre you like to write in? [00:01:28] Speaker B: I mean, by numbers? Not particularly, but I do like to write in it. I really only wrote those two stories. I call those the Death Wish duology, because I wrote those specifically for Death Wish because, you know, Battle of Little got in and I was like, well, how do I. There's only more money to make made somewhere here in the Bible. So, you know, I wanted to tackle some other biblical theology, some other mythology from the. The Bible. And those two stories just have, you know, the story of Mary Magdalene, the story of Lot and his daughters, I felt had some. Some good potential to explore, and that's why I chose those. [00:02:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I really like Bloody Mary a lot. I really. Obviously, I'm not someone who really understands or appreciates the character of Mr. Jesus, but I think you do a really wonderful job of highlighting how his absence would have been felt by people who were not that closely attached to him. You know, like, the ascension is treated as a bad thing in Bloody Mary because Mary Magdalene misses him and the world just feels empty without his light there. [00:02:30] Speaker B: Yeah, that's definitely what I was trying to, you know, kind of. I was trying to explore the resurrection from, like, maybe a different angle that hasn't been explored quite yet because I think we all get caught up in, like, it was a sacrifice. It was a great thing. It was a beautiful thing. Humanity saved. You know, it's like Neo getting absorbed in the angel, Agent Smith, you know, So I wanted to show that maybe, maybe a drawback of it on like a personal level. We see the massive, sweeping cosmic consequences of Jesus is coming back, but we don't really think about it on a personal level. On a human level. [00:02:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's a good way to describe it because, like, the Christians make a big. I mean, this is, this might just be Catholic doctrine. I don't know. I'm sure the Christians. Yeah, that, that sinister group of people. Right. But no, they talk about how Jesus was 100% human and 100 God or spirit at the same time. It was the, it was a magic synthesis. [00:03:22] Speaker B: To me, that makes sense, but. [00:03:24] Speaker A: Well, does it make sense? [00:03:26] Speaker B: It makes sense to me and it makes sense to me in terms of a story in fiction, but it doesn't make. If I was talking about real life, it wouldn't make any sense, but, you know. [00:03:34] Speaker A: Right. Well, like, I, I get it conceptually, but at the same time it's like, like Jesus doesn't. Like there aren't stories where he laughs. There aren't stories where he makes mistakes. Like there's nothing human about him. [00:03:47] Speaker B: You know, to me, that's how a lot of modern Christians envision him. We, we like to. A lot of modern Christians like to vision, like the fun Jesus, the happy Jesus, the one who makes kind of quippy jokes and he preaches and he, you know, he's good friends with all his disciples and they kind of pal around and it's like a whole roaming band of just hippies. But like, and you know, the Bible doesn't. That contradicts that interpretation. But there's not a whole lot of warmth in humanity. [00:04:11] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree, I agree. And I think that's the impact of modernism and Christian media trying to emulate Vikings, where the Heathens are these like fun loving warriors who get into mishaps and stuff. It's not really there in biblical litter, biblical literature, or, I don't know, Catholic doctrine. Like, if you read Paradise Lost, where every character besides for Jesus and God the Father are like really fun and complex, it just doesn't come across. It's not really there. [00:04:40] Speaker B: But to be fair, you know, the Bible is kind of written to be a sort of historical accounting, so you're not gonna have that kind of like colorful character, focused prose. [00:04:49] Speaker A: True, true. [00:04:51] Speaker B: It's just a limitation of the format. [00:04:53] Speaker A: Really, which is where Clever writers like you come in. You know, Jesus feels like something that I was missing in the story because of how powerful and sad you make, how impactful you make his reality feel by his absence in your story. You know, Mary finds herself drawn to Judas because he's also sad about Mr. Jesus for different reasons, because he betrayed him. He doesn't have the gall to tell her, though. And when he. When he kills himself, she has no one to relate to. And it's not really something you see. Like, it puts the mind. It's. It reminds me of the character of the comedian in Watchmen, where his death is sort of what sets everything into motion, and it shadows every character's actions in the story, you know, to the point where Mary isn't really capable of understanding, like, the abstract nature of what Jesus did for the world and his followers. Right. Because that is very much what it is. It's not something physical. You know, like, it's like when you. [00:05:57] Speaker B: Good. Hell, it's like if a person died and the person was an organ donor and his organs go to good people, goes to teachers and doctors and scientists and noble people, and the doctor's telling the parent of the patient, well, don't worry, your. Your son was worth more to the world at large dead than alive. Like, no one, even if that's true, no one wants to hear. That's just a platitude. No one would. You know, it wouldn't matter to someone who knew Jesus personally. They would be upset about it. [00:06:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It's a loss, and I really appreciate that. When she goes to the sepulchre where he was buried and ascended, well, I guess he didn't ascend from, you know, he left the sepulcher. But when she goes there, she talks to him and he doesn't talk back. And that's something that. I think a lot of people who are religious or used to be religious, I think they could really relate to that. I can relate to that, you know, because I'm not a religious person. I don't believe in God or anything like that. But, like, I went through periods where I would talk to God and I would be like, you know, is he. Is he talking back? I don't. You know, like, a lot of people confuse. Their silence is deafening is my point. [00:07:03] Speaker B: You know, a lot of people just confuse their own internal monologue with the. The response of God. So, you know, I think. I think a lot of people who are just actually honest with themselves are like, I don't think this is legit at Least he's not talking back. At least. [00:07:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:18] Speaker B: If I were to, you know, pray, it'd be something like, how many fingers is the guy next to me holding behind his back? You know, I wouldn't ask him anything about personal. I'd ask him, like, can you give me some proof? Can you give me some kind of, like, some verification? What are the winning lotto numbers? I'm not gonna use it. I'm not gonna use it for money. I just want to know, like, if you know. [00:07:35] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It. It. They. They walk a fine line with that kind of stuff because it's like. Because there's no proof of God, they lean really hard on the faith thing. Oh, you need faith. It's like, why. Why doesn't God. Like, wouldn't it be better for him to reveal himself? Like, what's the problem? [00:07:49] Speaker B: Faith. The problem is that faith leads to false religions, too. So obviously, faith is not a good. A reliable means of getting to the truth. [00:07:57] Speaker A: It is not. Because Muslims have faith. [00:08:00] Speaker B: Jews have faith. [00:08:02] Speaker A: Buddhists, Hindus, Zoroastrianists, you know, Norse pagans, right? It's like, yeah, it's like, oh, they have false faith. Well, how do I tell the difference? All these people say that they believe because they have faith. And it's like, well, if God revealed himself, that would destroy your free will. And it's like, well, keeping me. [00:08:22] Speaker B: That has nothing to do with free will, because whether or not I know if something exists has nothing to do with whether or not free will exists. Like, there's no evidence for Bigfoot, but, like, if Bigfoot did exist and I didn't know about him, I wouldn't. My free will wouldn't be violated by my absence of knowing. [00:08:35] Speaker A: I have a hard time, too, because for me, as I understand it, belief is not. I don't think. It's not a conscious choice. [00:08:42] Speaker B: No. [00:08:43] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm not capable of believing in gods. Like, I had a period after I deconstructed from religion where I was, like, real into Norse paganism, but I couldn't. I knew Odin wasn't real. There was no, like, well, I want the All Father to be real, or I'm gonna have. It's like, well, he's not real. I know that this is a construction by Nordic and Teutonic peoples. Like, it's like, it's hard to explain the thunder and natural processes and death, you know? Like, I don't think. Good. [00:09:12] Speaker B: I just associated with the religion, but I never really, like, stopped being interested in theology, which is why I write Stories like the he. [00:09:19] Speaker A: I agree. And that. That brings us back to the story. Of course. I. I also like theology. Look, it's. It's like reading Warhammer 40K. [00:09:26] Speaker B: Exactly. It's cool to, like, get in the moment, you know, be like, ah, yes, Crisis King, Crax, this king. But, like, you know, you wouldn't. I wouldn't want him to look, it's like the Emperor of Man. You don't want to live in real life. [00:09:37] Speaker A: No, no. What did you say? Filthy infidel. But no, seriously, I agree. Like, obviously, I play with it in my Demonland novels. Like, I like. I like the dream logic of it, but it doesn't add up and not capable of believing it, which, you know, obviously. So. Okay. I want to focus on what you do with Mary Magdalene. Should we go into the ending or should we leave it? [00:10:00] Speaker B: Whatever you think feels best. It depends, like, what you want to do. You know, if you want to talk about Mary Magdalene, we can do that. [00:10:06] Speaker A: Well, tell you what, I don't want to spoil the story. People should read it. It is very good. It's on deathwishpoetry.com. it will not be in the physical edition. There will be an excerpt because there's not space. [00:10:17] Speaker B: Oh, there'll be an excerpt. That's cool. [00:10:19] Speaker A: I was gonna leave it out, but I don't want to do that. That's not fair to, you know, my short story writers. So. So, yeah, you should definitely read it. But, you know, you do something with Mary Magdalene that I haven't seen done before, and it. It very much speaks to the physical body and the physical world and sort of the arena in which she lives. Right. And understands. And, like, you know, I'm wondering if that was part of your thinking in doing that to her without giving away what you do. [00:10:50] Speaker B: So you're basically asking if I had any kind of, like, physical. Like, are you asking, like. Like, was I intentionally trying to make her her final. Final conclusion, if you will. Like, reminiscent of some kind of metaphor for, like, matter. Over spirituality or physicality. Over spirituality or anything like that. [00:11:08] Speaker A: Yeah. As in, like, Mr. Jesus abandoned her and she's like, whatever, I'm gonna do this. [00:11:12] Speaker B: Yeah, probably. I would say so. In my mind, it was just kind of like, making a cool kind of parallel to sort of Lucifer, how Lucifer was, like, kind of favored among all angels and among Christ's disciples, the one who was. Seemed to be favored above all others also seems to kind of go down a darker path. I don't think I was making any conscious Decision of, like, you know, flesh being superior to spirit or matter being physical superior to divine. But if you want to read that into it, I think that's pretty cool if you did. [00:11:38] Speaker A: Okay. [00:11:39] Speaker B: As soon as the story's out and it's written, my opinion on it is no more valid than anyone else's. [00:11:43] Speaker A: Right. Despite being the writer. I appreciate that. Yeah. I mean, the mark of good writing is that different people will get different things out of it. I think, you know, I was kind. [00:11:50] Speaker B: Of in my mind, I was sort of like, I wanted to explore Mary Magdalene because she's a character that doesn't get a lot of dues. I think I never even heard of Mary Magdalene, despite her importance and me attending many, many religious schools until I was well into my 20s, I think never even heard of her, which is kind of bizarre. And I think part of the reason is that is because I think she's a. She's a female. And I think a lot of. Like, in the story, I point out how a lot of disciples have a lot of beef against her because she's closer to Jesus than any of them and she's a female, and they can't take offense of that. And partly because I think the fact that she was so close to Jesus in a historical sense really calls into question Jesus is chastity. Because we see throughout history, religious leaders tend to have women who comfort them, you know, physically. And I think it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume that Jesus probably had some sort of romantic relationship with Mary Magdalene if such people did exist. [00:12:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, you know, she's. She is a character. And I'm wondering if she doesn't have a major role in the Bible. She has a role in the Bible. I don't even think she's named. Right. [00:12:56] Speaker B: A lot of people wonder. She's. I think she's named. A lot of people attribute her or conflate her with the prostitute that Jesus protects on square. [00:13:04] Speaker A: Exactly. That's what I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:13:05] Speaker B: Which to my knowledge, has been debunked. The Catholic Church no longer believes that, although I did in my story, but whatever. [00:13:11] Speaker A: Well, you can't debunk something that is an implication that people read into a narrative. They just say it's not her, and they're primacy of opinion on the Jesus. And it's like, okay. [00:13:23] Speaker B: It's like when the people in charge of Warhammer change the rule. [00:13:25] Speaker A: Okay, exactly. Yeah, yeah. But it's like the Bible exists as a literary work, so if it's There. I'm gonna read it into it because I don't really care what the Catholic Church says. They don't have any reason to. [00:13:37] Speaker B: It's like Satan being the serpent in the Garden of Eden. There's no evidence to suggest that. It's just cool to think that there's. [00:13:42] Speaker A: Nothing in the book. Right, Exactly. It's just a thing that. Yeah. Ties into the narrative, as it were. [00:13:47] Speaker B: And it makes more sense, like, retroactively. [00:13:49] Speaker A: Well, it can. Right, exactly. [00:13:51] Speaker B: Because how the Would. How did the snake talk to begin with? Who put it there? [00:13:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:57] Speaker B: Was it God? [00:13:57] Speaker A: It's almost like it's a. It's a. It's something they stole from another mythology. Well, I think that. What did I want to say? Where do I want to go? Good old. [00:14:06] Speaker B: You want. I mean, if you want to talk about the ending, we can just put like a spoiler warning or something or. You don't want to do that. [00:14:10] Speaker A: Nah, let's not do that. Because people just. People just watch. People just listen. All right. Unless you don't care. Do you not care? [00:14:16] Speaker B: I care if you care. [00:14:17] Speaker A: I liked it. I don't want to spoil it. [00:14:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I guess so. [00:14:21] Speaker A: Bloody Mary is a very beautiful story. You know, there's. There's a lot of really beautiful descriptions. There's a lot of very moving depictions of grief and sorrow. And even if you don't like Christianity or you don't vibe with that kind of stuff, it's thoughtful and definitely worth reading. And you should definitely click the link at the bottom. [00:14:41] Speaker B: And it's very much what I think about. When C.S. lewis talked about writing about religion, he said, people. Christians do not. Christianity does not need a Christian writers. They need writers who happen to be Christian. And I kind of think that applies to me as well, because I'm not trying to write a story about Christianity. I'm just trying to write a good story. [00:14:59] Speaker A: And you're not even Christian, right? [00:15:01] Speaker B: No, I'm not. Although I. I do. I was raised Catholic. I know a lot about Christianity. I was kind of a soft spot for it among all other religions. But. [00:15:09] Speaker A: Yeah, and you're not like me. You actually like the character of Jesus, right? [00:15:14] Speaker B: I like my interpretation of him. I don't like how he's in the text. I have to, like, kind of like. It's kind of like Anakin Skywalker. I kind of have to, like, forget a lot of shit about him to like him. [00:15:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's a great metaphor because I was writing a poem years ago where I was Gonna have three Jewish messiahs drinking together and talking to me. And one of them was gonna be Mr. Jesus. And I was like, alright, I don't know anything about this. So I read through the Jefferson Bible, which is basically segments from the Gospel with all the miracles removed. And I was horrified by all the admonitions and all. Jesus is like talking about eternal hellfire. And I'm just like, jesus? [00:15:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:55] Speaker A: How mean he was, you know? So, yeah, I appreciate that. [00:15:58] Speaker B: I like to, if ever I write about Jesus or have Jesus in a story, I like to write him as. I don't like to write him, everyone a bad light. Not because I have a special attachment to Jesus, but because I feel like one, it's cheap. Two, I just think it's more interesting in this mythology to have God, big daddy, big boss, be the angry, righteously furious, I'll smoke your ass, you know, smiting people left and right. I'll cast you out, do this, do that, curses upon people. I think it's cool to have him be that and have Jesus be another side of that side of the coin, if you will. The compassionate side, the merciful side, the gentle side, redemption. I like to see Jesus more as the redemption for God than redemption of man. [00:16:41] Speaker A: Well, that's you rehabilitating an entire mythology. I love it. Very ambitious, very cool. [00:16:46] Speaker B: There is a great video by a gentleman named Dark Matter 2525. He lists five reasons to rethink Jesus sacrifice. I think everyone should watch it. I think it's pretty interesting. And it's kind of like how I like to interpret it if you. Because it makes more sense if you think about it. [00:16:59] Speaker A: Shout out to Dark Matter. That's a channel I haven't watched since I was a teenager, but it's great. He makes little animations about the Bible. [00:17:06] Speaker B: Probably in some way inspired me as a writer of, you know, writing biblical retellings. [00:17:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Like obviously they're cynical videos. Like he's an atheist and he thinks the Bible. [00:17:16] Speaker B: I mean, that's what made me an atheist. By the way. I watched one Dark Matter video as when I was 12 years old and I was like, okay, yeah, yeah, God's not real. That makes sense. [00:17:23] Speaker A: Yeah. I love the Garden of Eden video where Adam's like naming all the animals and there's a velociraptor. [00:17:29] Speaker B: He's like, yeah, that's the first, that's the one I watched. That's the first one I watched. [00:17:32] Speaker A: You have claws for ripping flesh. And he's like, no, no, no, I, I Eat. I eat. I eat greens, like everything else here. We're. We're at peace. [00:17:38] Speaker B: Why do you have such sharp teeth? [00:17:40] Speaker A: That's actually really funny. [00:17:42] Speaker B: Hey, Yahweh, what about those wasps whose life cycle depends on burrowing in the eyes of children is like, what? [00:17:48] Speaker A: No, no, no. There was no death in the garden before the forbidden fruit, man. Yeah, you're asking. Don't ask that question, all right? Don't ask it again. [00:17:55] Speaker B: Why do I have a butthole if I don't need to eat? Survive. [00:17:58] Speaker A: Hey, hey. It wasn't there before. Okay, yeah. Dark Matter 25 or whatever the number is. Great channel. It's probably still there. I don't know. It's been a while. [00:18:05] Speaker B: He's still going strong. He made a video yesterday about. It was about Donald Trump going to hell. [00:18:10] Speaker A: I'm gonna have to catch up. That's crazy. Okay, well, do read Bloody Mary. It's glorious, it's sad, it's melodramatic. And, you know, it's about Mary Magdalene, who, as far as female characters in the Bible go, she's definitely one of them. [00:18:26] Speaker B: One of the most fun times I ever had writing Story two. It was a lot of. It was easy time writing. It was a fun time writing. So it was pretty cool experience all around. [00:18:33] Speaker A: Which brings us to our next story, a very sinister story, the Song of Sodom, which is about Lote Lot's daughters. That's the Romanized version, right? I always say the Hebrew lot. That's. [00:18:49] Speaker B: I always kind of like. I always kind of, like, want to do, like, Hebrew names, but, like. Yeah, it makes it sound pretentious. [00:18:53] Speaker A: Nobody. Well, nobody knows what that is. If you say Avraham, they're gonna be like, wait, the Yu Gi oh card. Like, what are you talking about? [00:18:58] Speaker B: Abraham. Yeshu. [00:19:02] Speaker A: Yehoshua. Yeah. Yeshu is Aramaic for Jesus. That's actually really funny. I think it's derogatory because they're. [00:19:08] Speaker B: They're. [00:19:09] Speaker A: They're. I don't know. Whatever. Whatever. I don't want to get into that. Song of Sodom is about Lot's daughters. Famously, in the Bible, there's this wonderful city called Sodom and its sister city, Gomorrah, which Yahweh is like, I'm gonna destroy this fucking city, and there's going to be no more Sodom and Gomorrah And Abraham, God's best bro is like, hey, come on, don't do that. [00:19:27] Speaker B: Like the original Jew, he is, he negotiates God down from 50 good people to just one. [00:19:32] Speaker A: True. Probably the first story of a Jew haggling, you know? And it's. [00:19:37] Speaker B: Yeah. And the Bible, it does not hold back any punches. It literally goes back and forth. Like, what if there's 50? There's 50 good people there, right? It's like, well, what if there's 25? [00:19:45] Speaker A: There ain't none. He's like, all right, all right. [00:19:49] Speaker B: The audacity to push his luck against the Creator. [00:19:52] Speaker A: Maybe my. My nephew, he's like, abraham, that guy sucks. He's like, he's family. What are you talking about? Maybe he could come out, have some kishka shabbos, you know? Oy very oyve is Mary. Yeah. So Yahweh lets them, you know. But before all that, God sends some angels down to go and tell a lot. It's time to go, buddy. Well, actually, this is all after My God, I am so the first thing. [00:20:18] Speaker B: To appraise the moral worth of the city, because God's not omniscient for some stupid reason. And then after that, after he's welcomed into the home by Locke because he's the only one who they're gonna say they're gonna sleep in the city square. And Lot's like, that's not a great idea. But, you know, you might leave yourself open to some unwanted visitation. [00:20:35] Speaker A: Maybe don't. Yeah, maybe don't. This is. This is. This is the. The rape city. So the angels stay with Lot in his house, and a horde. Show a horde of every man in. [00:20:49] Speaker B: The city, every one of them. [00:20:52] Speaker A: It's like a story that was written about, like, New York by, like, a weird Christer nowadays. Like, the raving homosexual hordes of Philadelphia or New York. [00:21:01] Speaker B: You know, they'd be better off if they had raving homosexual whores than what they have now. [00:21:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:06] Speaker B: Like rats and homeless people and just, you know, yikes. [00:21:10] Speaker A: Anyway, so, yeah, they're. They're demanding that Lot send out his sexy, otherworldly angel fun boys. Yeah. And I'm not sure that Lot knows that they're angels at the moment, but. [00:21:21] Speaker B: Yeah, that's never clear, is it? [00:21:23] Speaker A: It's not clear. He learned. What's implied by the Bible is that Lot learned the virtue of hospitality from Abraham, because that was Abraham's big thing, inviting guests in and being nice to them and feeding them. It's like a thing of the ancient world. And so Lot was like, you can't rape my guests. They're my guests. [00:21:40] Speaker B: Even Zeus was the God of hospitality. If you, like, fuck. If you fucked with your. Your guests, Zeus would fuck with you, man. That's like one of the highest laws there is. [00:21:48] Speaker A: Yeah, a lot of. A lot of. I want to say Bronze Age cultures were like that. The Norse were like that. You were supposed to let any guest in who came by. It might be a God in disguise. You don't know, you know. So, yeah, he's like, listen, I'm not gonna send my guests out, but maybe I'll send out my two virgin daughters. And you can. You can. You can rape them. [00:22:07] Speaker B: My virgin d. Even though they're married or betrothed. [00:22:11] Speaker A: They were unmarried. It's been a while since I read. [00:22:13] Speaker B: Well, no, because got Lot since Lot goes to get his sons in law. [00:22:17] Speaker A: Oh, does he? [00:22:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:19] Speaker A: What the is this? Maybe they were sacred prostitutes. I don't know. Oh, yeah, they were. They were. They were virgins, though, right? [00:22:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, he said they were virgins, but they lived. [00:22:29] Speaker A: They lived in the city of sexual like. [00:22:31] Speaker B: Yeah. How can every man in the city be a rapist and have two virgin women? [00:22:35] Speaker A: All right, whatever. It's the fucking Bible. So he sends them out there, and it's. It's real dark. So tell us what happens in your story, Jack, because I love this story. It's great, but I want to hear. [00:22:44] Speaker B: You tell it in the story. Well, for one, I thought it was pretty suspicious that every man in the city is a rapist. I figured something has to be going on here. But secondly, I got the idea of, like, what if. What if Asmodeus was there, the demon of lust? And that would make sense. And then in my mind's eye, I'm like, okay, well, what's interesting, I could do with this. What if Asmodeus sees Lot do that? And he's like, wait, what the. Wait, you can't. Righteous. That's that. I call it Hacks. Hacks. Righteous people can't do that. So of course he's like, well, I got a choice now. I gotta do the right thing and save them. Or I could rebel against God. I never thought I'd have to make that choice, but here I am, and he chooses to. He'd rather rebel against God. So he decides to cast the blinding spell, which in the Bible, that's what the angels did. But instead, this is him. I mean, the Bible, they don't. In the Bible, the rapists don't accept lost hours. They want that angel booty, you know, they want those angel booties. They don't care about these virgin women. They want. They want Angel. So instead, I made. That's the change I made. They made. They actually like, oh, we'll take the virgins. So a lot sends them out, the little virgins, they're panicking. Asmodeus makes his choice. He blinds them. They all fall to the ground. As Moni is like, hey, you need a lift, basically? And that's. The story just keeps on. The story's off. [00:23:57] Speaker A: It's good stuff. I love how you write Asmodeus. It's pretty great. And in no time at all, Sodom was rotten. It was putrid, it was a carcass of its former self. The streets were swollen in muck and its gutters fermented in fornication and urine. The sweet chorus of its debauchery cried out every night. And Asmodeus basked in the sight and sound and scent of it all. He never partook, only a humble guide. He may have been a vagrant with rags for shoes, but he was a ruler of this place. But he was ruler of this place. His castle was the streets. His gnarled walking stick was his scepter, and his advisors were the rats and lice. Sodom continued to deteriorate under Asmodeus watchful eye. As time went on, the decadence, capital D, sank to new, more exciting lows. The city was no longer a blemish. It was an infection. It was only a matter of time, Asmodeus knew, before the enemy would be dispatched to cure it, sterilize it, before it could spread. That's when the angels came to Sodom. They had been sent by God to appraise just how vile the city and its denizens had become. They did not disguise themselves as Asmodeus did. They came in their true forms, practically naked, tall, strong and luminous. Their bodies looked more of pure energy than of crude matter shimmering like sunlight off of water. And they were unmistakably male. Their trunks were muscular, yet hourglass shaped. [00:25:22] Speaker B: It's. [00:25:22] Speaker A: It's so funny how you write this because he's just like, yeah, this place is gonna get like wiped out eventually. But I mean, I'm doing my job. And then the angels just show up and it's. There's no pretense about what's happening at all. [00:25:36] Speaker B: You know, I. I mean, the Bible kind of left me holding, you know, kind of left me empty handed with those angelus. I'm like, how does this work? [00:25:42] Speaker A: Are they. [00:25:43] Speaker B: Did they just come as humans? Are they male? Are they. Well, how does this work? [00:25:47] Speaker A: And then you get to the point where Lot sends his daughters out and he's like he really did it. Asmodeus thought in horrified bewilderment. He was almost impressed. Almost. So what makes you decide to have Asmodeus save the girls? [00:26:01] Speaker B: I mean, it would be more interesting if he did than if he didn't. That's the longer, the short of it. [00:26:06] Speaker A: That's a great answer. [00:26:08] Speaker B: I mean, it's like the same kind of. If more stories can be told with that omission than not, then I'm going to do it. [00:26:15] Speaker A: Yeah, obviously this story is very. It's very fun. It's very morbid. It's also very sexy. Jack, do you enjoy writing erotica? [00:26:25] Speaker B: Yes, I do do it. I confess. In fact, the very first time I ever made money off writing it was from writing smut. I wrote smut in high school and people paid me for it. And it got pretty. I did pretty well. I got like a hundred bucks. [00:26:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, people will pay good money for well written erotica. Do you enjoy writing biblical erotica? Is that like your favorite genre? [00:26:47] Speaker B: No, I. I wouldn't say so. To me, this just had like a. A sexy kind of like, of all the Bible stories, the. The story of Lot and his wacky daughters happened to have like, the kind of like a set of porn scenario. So I kind of explored that route in like a different way. So not. Not particularly bi biblical erotica, but I do kind of like, you know, it's a sexy scenario. [00:27:07] Speaker A: These are this. Yeah, never mind. Yeah, so fair enough. Fair enough. Obviously, you're not limited to biblical stuff. Like, in our workshop, we read this one story that you'd written that was. It reminded me of Boy, I have a. The Kurt Vonnegut novel Slaughterhouse Five, where there's like this human who is living with aliens and their little resort and their little, you know, she lives in like a little human. [00:27:36] Speaker B: Like a nature preserve. [00:27:37] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like a nature preserve that run by these squid aliens. And obviously it goes to a sexy place. And like, it's a very funny story. It's a very sexy story. It's a very unlike that story. [00:27:48] Speaker B: I would say that Song of Sodom is. I would say Song of Sodom is erotica. Whereas I would say that story is just a story that happens. Have erotic elements. Whereas this, in this case, this was meant to titillate, Right? [00:27:58] Speaker A: This was meant to be sexy and kind of blasphemous. [00:28:02] Speaker B: Let's move out to the fun of it. It's like, oh, it's forbidden. [00:28:05] Speaker A: Yeah, understood. Excuse me. So what are your. Some. What Are some of your inspirations as. [00:28:11] Speaker B: A writer, like just in general? Oh, I gotta say, Carlin Ellison, he's my man. If he can't do it, no one can. He's written my. As someone who predominantly writes short stories, he wrote my favorite short story of all time. I have no mouth and I must scream, obviously. You know, that's very popular nowadays. It's in memes, it's in posts and edits. And people just love Sam. All. You know, he's mentioned with the Q Hanim from All Tomorrows or Judge Holden is just pre evil villains. I think he still doesn't get his dues, really. I think he's responsible for the post nuclear apocalypse genre and like Fallout and Mad Max. I don't think people really appreciate that because of hero boy and his dog. That was kind of the genesis of that. And just all around, if you just want to write, if you just want a creative, bizarre short story or just story in general, which is what I like to write. Harold Ellison, I think he does it better than no one else. [00:29:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, he's one of the. I think he's kind of underappreciated in the modern era, especially because like he wrote some of the early Star Trek episodes. He wrote for the Twilight Zone. He also. [00:29:09] Speaker B: Yeah, you're right, he wrote for the 80s Twilight Zone. I don't believe he ever wrote for the Rod Sterling era. [00:29:14] Speaker A: No. [00:29:15] Speaker B: No. [00:29:15] Speaker A: Okay, I'll take your word for that because you're kind of the expert on the Twilight Zone. So. [00:29:19] Speaker B: He wrote. The only Star Trek episode I'm aware that he wrote was City on the Edge of Forever. And I remember that because in his script he said ancient gate surrounded by mystical runes. And the set designer was a moron and thought he said ruins because he didn't know what runes are. So he came up to the set one day, he's like I said runes, not ruins. Runes. [00:29:39] Speaker A: Oh, that's amazing. I love that episode. But wait, he didn't. He didn't write the one where they go through the portal and try time travel? [00:29:46] Speaker B: No, he wrote that. [00:29:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that. That's what we're talking about. Didn't. Didn't he write the one with the robots? You know, the early episode with the robot? I don't. [00:29:53] Speaker B: I don't remember. [00:29:54] Speaker A: There was like a robot. [00:29:55] Speaker B: He could have. I'm not. I'm. I'm sure he could have written from other episodes of Star Trek. I'm pretty sure he did. I'm not sure though. That's the only episode I remember by name that he wrote. [00:30:04] Speaker A: Well, he also voiced it. He also voiced it. Well, he also voiced HP Hatecraft on Scooby Doo. [00:30:13] Speaker B: No, he didn't. [00:30:14] Speaker A: Yes, he did. [00:30:15] Speaker B: No, he didn't. He. That was Jeffrey. Okay, so everyone, Everyone. I don't know why everyone, like forgets the premise of the episode. In the episode, there are two writers played by Jeffrey Combs. Yes. And then Harlan Ellison himself, who is named Harlan Ellison. Looks like Harlan Ellison and voiced by Harlan Ellison shows up. [00:30:34] Speaker A: No, you're right, you're right, you're right. I'm confabulating. Yeah, he was. [00:30:38] Speaker B: It's so weird because everyone makes that mistake. My friend made that mistake too. [00:30:41] Speaker A: It's because you forget that he was playing himself and you just know that HP Hate Craft was there. So bizarre. And it makes sense that it was Jeffrey Combs. Okay. [00:30:50] Speaker B: I wrote that. I saw that episode when I was like 8 years old and you know, obviously I thought he was just a made up writer. And then late years and years later go by, I read I have no mouth and I have my screams like, oh, wow, this is awesome. I do more explorers. Like, wait a minute. This is. I call shenanigans. [00:31:04] Speaker A: I think I. You know what I think? I think it was the Mandela effect. [00:31:08] Speaker B: Yeah, probably. [00:31:09] Speaker A: I think that Harlan Ellison voiced HP Hate Craft. And I didn't forget. I think that the world forgot. Yeah. [00:31:16] Speaker B: Harlan Nelson doesn't get his dues. [00:31:18] Speaker A: I'm leaving it all in. I don't care. [00:31:20] Speaker B: People, people. [00:31:21] Speaker A: Conspiracy love. [00:31:22] Speaker B: I have no mouth for good reason. It's my first story of him, but I think he needs other stories of me. Needs appreciation. I love reprint. Harley Quinn said a TikTok man five pretty Maggie, money Eyes, the Beast, that shout of love of the end of the world. I don't know, you know what it is. What else did he write? His dog, Soldier, Glow worm. I was. Can't. Let me get. Let me get the collection out. I got the. This was published last year. I got the essential works. [00:31:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I love. I love that cover. It's so cool. [00:31:52] Speaker B: Forward by Neil Gaiman, if you like. Want to hear his thoughts on the man. He gives a great description of Ellison. You know, Cassandra Cough, she's pretty popular. [00:31:58] Speaker A: That came out. Yeah, that came out back when American Gods was getting its. Its TV show. It was in development, so Gaiman's name was on everything. Like I have a collection of Lovecraft stories with stupid Gaiman's face name at the top. It's very upsetting. [00:32:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I do love Gaiman's description of Ellison. He says, I. I felt like a befriended. A hand, a hand grenade. I just didn't want to be around when he went off. [00:32:20] Speaker A: Gaiman is a great writer. He's just Neil Gaiman, you know? [00:32:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Also edited by J. Michael straczynski, who wrote Babylon 5. He also wrote the Spider man comic where Spider man sells his soul to the devil. If you want to love and hate him at the same time, like I do, he also. [00:32:36] Speaker A: He also wrote Sins of the Father, where Spider man finds out that Gwen Stacy, before she died, mysteriously gave. Secretly gave birth to Norman Osborn's twin children. His run of Spider man is one of the most baffling runs. It has these high fucking peaks. He. He created the Morlun, the Inheritors, but then he also wrote that dumb. Yeah, the. The whole Brand New Day thing was. That wasn't Straczynski's fault. That was Joe Quesada. He's a. [00:33:07] Speaker B: He seems like it. [00:33:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:09] Speaker B: So, yeah. Check out Harlan Ellison. He's my inspiration as a short story writer. [00:33:12] Speaker A: There you go. [00:33:13] Speaker B: I also got to mention, you know, Clyde Barker, his Books of Blood. Very. This one has way more. I mean, this one, even though Harlan is my favorite, Clyde Barker easily inspired Bloody Mary and Song of Sodom way more than Allison did, unfortunately. [00:33:27] Speaker A: I mean, Barker is a genius. He's easily my favorite modern writer. I like him more than Stephen King, you know. [00:33:35] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm inclined to agree. I love the short stories most of all. But he has great books too, obviously. There's hellbound heart, there's Mr. Be Gone Scholar Gospels. Yeah, I have that Thief of Always, which is a great kids book if you want. You want a great book for your children. Thief of Always. [00:33:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. His kids books are funny because they're written for children, but they're still very much Barker. I didn't read the Thief of Always, but I read a bit of Abarat and I was surprised by how gruesome it was just in its own kids, you know? [00:34:04] Speaker B: Yaski kid, you need to scare them a little bit. You gotta, you know, scare the piss down a little bit, you know. [00:34:07] Speaker A: Well, kids can take it. That's. [00:34:09] Speaker B: They deserve quality writing. [00:34:10] Speaker A: Kids can take it. Like we're watching the Thundercats right now and I'm like, oh, this is imaginative and kind of violent, kind of scary. [00:34:17] Speaker B: Like which one? [00:34:19] Speaker A: I'm watching the original. [00:34:20] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, they made a reboot when I was a little boy and it was kind of more mature. It had like, there was a scene, pretty graphic, where like it's not. You don't see it, but, like, you see a silhouette of a man beating his slave, and it's pretty brutal. [00:34:34] Speaker A: That's awesome. Yeah. I was telling Dustin. I'm like, do you think they'll ever do, like, a. Like a. A Masters of the Universe revelation for this show? He's like, they did it already. [00:34:44] Speaker B: Yeah. That's what I was talking about. [00:34:45] Speaker A: It's the 2000s. People love it. I'm like, I never saw it. I didn't even know it existed. [00:34:50] Speaker B: But unfortunately, for a reason I can't get into right now, because of a whole different array of. Of reasons action cartoons are no longer viable, generally. [00:34:58] Speaker A: Well, yeah. I mean, there's a reason why Superman, the cartoon show. My adventures with Superman is airing on Adult Swim, which is crazy. That's a children's show. [00:35:06] Speaker B: And even then, it's very, very much light hearted, very comedic. It's very, you know, action cartoons just don't do well anymore for children. [00:35:15] Speaker A: Unfortunate. Yeah. Harlan Allison, Clyde Barker, those are pretty good influences to have. [00:35:19] Speaker B: Richard Matheson wrote a lot of the Twilight Zone episodes. He's a great. He's one I took a lot of inspiration from. There is Robert A. Heinlein, Isaac Asimov. I tend to write more science fiction than I do just like, fantasy or horror. [00:35:31] Speaker A: Right. [00:35:32] Speaker B: But, you know, I love it all. [00:35:35] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, interestingly enough, you're actually working on a novel that is a very much a science fiction novel. Right. [00:35:40] Speaker B: Science fiction. Adjacent, I would say adjacent. [00:35:43] Speaker A: Okay, got it. Yeah. Do we want to talk about that or. Nah. [00:35:47] Speaker B: No. Well, we'll say that because I don't want people to be like, when's the book coming out, Jack? When's it coming out? You mentioned it. You know, it'll be out when it's out. [00:35:55] Speaker A: Okay, we will cut that then. Okay. Yeah. Those are really great influences. Those are two of my influences, too. I love, love, love Barker. I love. My God, what's wrong with me? [00:36:09] Speaker B: That crown is too tight. It's cutting off blood. [00:36:11] Speaker A: You're right. I need to take the crown off. Heavy is the crown. I love Barker. I love HP Hatecraft. [00:36:18] Speaker B: Okay. [00:36:20] Speaker A: Oh, my God, what's his name? He wrote, I have no mouth and I must scream. [00:36:23] Speaker B: Harlan Ellison. [00:36:24] Speaker A: Oh, my God, I'm gonna punch myself in the face. All right. Yeah. I love Harlan Olson. I love Clive Barker. [00:36:30] Speaker B: You can see the Ellison influence in my other death wish submission, which is scream of consciousness, which is basically just, I have no mouth, I must scream. But reverse. It's. It's machines being Tortured, Right. [00:36:41] Speaker A: That's a really good story. Yeah, it's a great, great, great story. What did I want to say? I really want to read Boy and His Dog. I've never read that. That sounds cool, though. I didn't really. [00:36:52] Speaker B: The movie is pretty much exactly like the. The book, so if you want to watch that instead, that's cool. [00:36:57] Speaker A: He's kind of underrated. Fair enough. So are there any current shows that you're watching? [00:37:03] Speaker B: Current shows that I'm watching? [00:37:05] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I just watched. [00:37:06] Speaker B: No, I don't think there is. I've been reading a lot of comic books recently. I've been reading the original Doom Patrol. I've been reading the original Silver Surfer. Very good. Especially Silver Surfer. [00:37:16] Speaker A: The classic Stan and Jack stuff. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. That's kind of the later era of Stan and Jack collaborating because that was a spin off of Fantastic Four, which the coming of Galactus was like, when they were really hitting their stride with a lot of books. [00:37:31] Speaker B: You know, again, you can see people drawing inspiration from the Bible. You can. Jack Kirby, like in the Silver Server to a fallen angel. And you really get that vibe in these early, earlier issues where he's over verbose and his tragedy is so cosmic in a way. It's like I was reading. I was like, this is. This is literature. This is not a comic. This is literature. [00:37:49] Speaker A: Yeah. He spends a lot of time. [00:37:50] Speaker B: Not to sound like a blow art. [00:37:52] Speaker A: No, you're right, though. You're right, though. You know, whereas like a lot of comic books follow the structure of villain does something, you know, hero, not being very pro, very reactive, shows up after hand wringing about being a hero for a while, they show up and fight the villain. And then, you know, we wiped the board and set. You know, the Silver Surfer comic kind of spearheaded the cosmic direction where we would feature characters in space musing over whatever, and then something psychedelic and life changing would happen. [00:38:22] Speaker B: And effortlessly philosophical, in a way. [00:38:25] Speaker A: Very philosophical. Exactly. The Jim starlins of the 70s. The. Your guardians of the Galaxy books. Your. Your. Who's that character? Adam Warlock books. [00:38:36] Speaker B: Actually, you know what? I have. It's not my first time watching it, but I have been rewatching the Silver surfer cartoon from 1999, which had a single episode written by Harlan Ellison. [00:38:46] Speaker A: Really? Which one? [00:38:47] Speaker B: It was the one where Galactus is dying because he ingested a space parasite. [00:38:52] Speaker A: That tracks. I would have guessed that he wrote the one with ego, the Living Planet, but that's just because, you know. [00:38:57] Speaker B: Yeah, the one where Silver Surfer goes to visit Beta Ray Bill, like the Wyndham, and they're all in, like, this virtual reality dream state, and they're, like, just living in this fantasy world, and he has to break him out of it. That also seemed to have, like, an Ellison vibe to it. [00:39:11] Speaker A: Yeah, true. I. I will say that that show, it's probably the best Marvel cartoon of the 90s. [00:39:17] Speaker B: Probably. I would say so. [00:39:18] Speaker A: I think it's the last one. Unless the Avengers came out. The shitty. [00:39:22] Speaker B: It's 1999, so it probably was the last one. I love the way the show looks. It's combined CGI and the. It's so, you know, the line work and the colors and the Kirby crackle everywhere. [00:39:31] Speaker A: It's very. Galactus is exclusively cgi, and there's something very charming about it. Even though he doesn't look great. [00:39:38] Speaker B: Yeah, well, he's still. It's a great design. His eyes are just like these, just blaring, like, headlights. And he has his badass voice. And his spaceship is literally like. It's a giant saucer the size of a planet. He's just this gigantic man and, like, a chair and, like, return, like, turns and stuff. Like, you know, he's looking at your direction. [00:39:55] Speaker A: Yeah. It's a great cartoon. It really is. [00:39:57] Speaker B: There is nothing in all the universe I cannot do. But even I weary of the endless chase. [00:40:04] Speaker A: He has the power cosmic. [00:40:06] Speaker B: The dialogue is legitimately quite profound, and it's written for both and for adults, and it's serious. And I wish so much that we could have a Marvel movie nowadays that came out that would have the go. The nerve, the confidence to be epic, to be serious, but they don't have that. [00:40:22] Speaker A: Honestly, if you watch the new Fantastic Four, you might be pleasantly surprised. [00:40:26] Speaker B: I might just. I'm going to see it in three days. [00:40:28] Speaker A: You might be pleasantly surprised. It's a very thoughtful movie that really takes its time with its characters, especially the Silver Surfer. [00:40:35] Speaker B: Good. [00:40:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:36] Speaker B: I mean, I wish it was Dorn Rad, but whatever. [00:40:38] Speaker A: They chose the female one for reasons actually that I was kind of. [00:40:41] Speaker B: If there's. If they. If they can tell a good story with it, then fine. Good. [00:40:46] Speaker A: Well, it's all that matters, really. Yeah. [00:40:48] Speaker B: If they just did it just because they wanted a female, then. You guys. [00:40:51] Speaker A: Yeah. That movie really feels like it's from, like, the first, like, run of Marvel movies. Like, it's so good. It's so heartbreakingly good. [00:40:58] Speaker B: Good, though. [00:40:59] Speaker A: Yeah. It's all. [00:40:59] Speaker B: It's just that I have. I have a personal connection to Norn Rad and the Fact that he's not the Silver Surfer. Just maybe it's like, you know, I'd rather see Jon Stewart as a Green Lantern than Hal Jordan. [00:41:09] Speaker A: It would be like if instead of Thor, they went with, like, the Jane Foster Thor for the Marvel movies. And I'm like, that's not Thor, you. [00:41:17] Speaker B: Know, it's not the Thor you know. You don't want to see that. [00:41:19] Speaker A: I like Jane Foster Thor, but that's not the Thor, you know, so. [00:41:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Not quite the same thing, but, yeah, I appreciate what they did, honestly. You might like it more than Superman. I don't. I like them both. [00:41:31] Speaker B: But to me, Superman left me, like, maybe just a little disappointed. So maybe Fantastic Four could come through for me. [00:41:37] Speaker A: You'll be surprised. It's a really good movie. Really thoughtful, really, really, really good. And they really do a great job. Like, I was expecting Johnny Storm to be the one telling jokes, and he's not really that goofy at all. He's. He's a scientist. [00:41:49] Speaker B: He's actually like, there's one sucker they always make in. These movies are, like, just shows and, you know, they make Shiny Storm, the dumbass of the group. [00:41:54] Speaker A: Speaking of 90s cartoons, I mean, you know, have B roll of Johnny Storm, you know, rapping. Yeah, it's great. It's great. [00:42:03] Speaker B: The 90s fantastic four did have his moments. There was an episode where Galactus came and Galactus was causing. And then Ghost Rider shows up, and it's awesome. [00:42:12] Speaker A: He does the Penance stare. [00:42:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:14] Speaker A: Stops Galactus for a second. It's pretty cool. [00:42:16] Speaker B: Feel the pain of a billion billion extinguished souls. Feel the agony of eternal guilt. [00:42:22] Speaker A: It's good stuff. I really like the episode where Reed Richards and Thor, like, team up to, like, kind of work with Galactus. It's good stuff. [00:42:29] Speaker B: Thor, played by John Rice Davies. [00:42:32] Speaker A: Who? What else did he do? [00:42:33] Speaker B: He played Gimli in Lord of the Rings and Professor Arturo in Sliders. [00:42:39] Speaker A: I never saw that. That's cool. [00:42:40] Speaker B: And that one guy in Indiana Jones, dogs barking outside. [00:42:44] Speaker A: That's cool. All right. So, yeah. So do watch Fantastic Four. Great show, Jack. Have you read Jack Kirby's Fourth World? [00:42:52] Speaker B: Fourth World? [00:42:53] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, the. [00:42:54] Speaker B: I don't think I have, you know. [00:42:55] Speaker A: The dark side and stuff, you know? [00:42:57] Speaker B: No, I don't think I did. I know a lot about it, but I haven't read it. [00:43:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Because after he left Marvel, he went off and did that. You might really love that. I. Yeah. [00:43:04] Speaker B: He made Darkseid. [00:43:05] Speaker A: He made. Well, he made Darkseid, but then he got to write A whole book about them, you know? [00:43:10] Speaker B: Well, he made all the new gods. [00:43:11] Speaker A: I think he made all the. Well, it was his idea. [00:43:13] Speaker B: He. [00:43:13] Speaker A: What? He. That was what he wanted to do for Thor. He was like, let's have Ragnarok happen. And, like, we'll kill everyone, but we'll have, like, the boom tube open, and they'll go to a new world. It'll be the fourth world. And, like, the survivors will go there, and they'll have a new race of gods. And Jack Kirby's like, what? You want to kill all our superheroes? What are you talking about? And he's like, instantly wasn't having it. So Jack Kirby was like, fine, whatever, nerd. So when he eventually walked and went. Went to work for dc, he brought that idea with him. And, yeah, I mean, he introduced Darkseid as a scheming villain in the Jimmy Olsen comic book. But, like, yeah, when he shows the backstory in the fourth world comic book, you see, like, the old race of gods dying, and Thor's helmet is there. Like, it's very clearly Asgard. The way Kirby drew it. [00:44:01] Speaker B: You know, you can at least see the. The Kirby influence on the aesthetics of New Genesis and Apocalypse. [00:44:07] Speaker A: Sure. They. They embrace the. Out of that. [00:44:10] Speaker B: You know, I love all the new guys. I love Mr. Miracle, Orion, Big Berta. [00:44:14] Speaker A: Orion's one of my favorites. Yeah. Apparently Walter Science has a book because he rates him, like, four, which I really should read. But I digress. [00:44:23] Speaker B: I digress. [00:44:24] Speaker A: I digress. Yes. [00:44:25] Speaker B: Your name, the podcast. I digress. [00:44:27] Speaker A: I take. On that note, those are things that Jack recommends. I don't know. Any thoughts you want to leave us with any words of wisdom for aspiring writers out there? [00:44:35] Speaker B: No, the story's not gonna write itself. You know, be consistent. Gotta, like, work. You gotta practice. You gotta work hard. You gotta read a lot. Obviously, I have no room to talk. I'm not making any money off any writing. [00:44:46] Speaker A: Yeah, okay. [00:44:47] Speaker B: Now, that'd be my kind of words of wisdom. Just something else I kind of want to say about the two. The two stories for resurrection. It was something I was thinking about when I was thinking about doing this interview, actually. I was saying a motif I kept coming back to in these biblical narratives was that these supernatural beings in these stories were much more influenced by the human beings than the human beings were influenced by the supernatural elements. And to me, that kind of represents sort of my stance on humanity and humanism in that we. All these mythology, all these mythological beings, angels and gods and demons, they're all just different extensions of Us and the things we do and the things we feel towards each other. And I think the message I was trying to go for in all these different biblical narratives was that what all comes down to it's all just us. The angel on your shoulder, the devil on your shoulder. It's just you, the things, the good things you do, the bad things you do. There's no devil on your shoulder telling you to do this. There's no God telling you to go this way and that way. It's all just you. And you have to. We have to own up to that as a people. And I hear people all the time, evangelical people, and they say, oh, the devil made me do it, the devil made me do it. Or they, they're, you know, some basketball players, like, we won this game because God wanted us to win. It's so sad because, one, you're not owning up to the bad things you've done and the mistakes you've made, and by just blaming the devil. But even worse, even sadder, you're not giving yourself credit for the good things you've done, for the accomplishments you made. So I, I just want to, like, leave off a message of just pro humanity. You have to. Bad as humanity can be, and we can be pretty bad. And as. As pitch and frightening our failures can be, our triumphs can be just as my. Just as all inspiring as our failures can, even more so. But in order to do that, we have to own up to what we are. We have to. We can't blame the invisible man or the devil with the pitchfork. We gotta own. It's all us. It's all just us. We have to own it. We have to embrace that. [00:46:47] Speaker A: As Marilyn Manson says, we don't create the world as artists, we just reflect on it. [00:46:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:53] Speaker A: And all we know is our own experience and perspective. And that's what we're sharing with the world, really. [00:46:59] Speaker B: You know, and that's what I, that's what I said to do with writer. I want to celebrate humanity. When you read a story of mine, I want you to think you want to feel enriched being human. Even if it's sad, even if it's tragic, even if it's depressing, you want to feel that joy of being. Because even depression, even sadness, even grief, those are all signs that things are beautiful and worth preserving because you feel a lacking of it. You feel lacking of those things when you're depressed after it. End of the story. [00:47:21] Speaker A: Fair. Well, I think that's a good place to end things, Jack. You know, where can we Go to see more of your writing and find out more. [00:47:32] Speaker B: Well, currently, Death Wish is the only place that published me. Unfortunately, I'm still working on trying to sell some of these stories. You can, you know, you know, shopping around here and there. You can just check out my Instagram, which I'm sure will be linked below if you can. And you, you know, just. I'll update everything I'm doing there. Anything that's getting posted, anything that's being published, anything and that's starting to get published, I'll post there. And I post. I post clips, I post reviews, I post little flash fictions. I post poems, author celebrations of recommendations that I like. It's a fun, fun little Instagram on the Gram. That's what the kids call. That's what the cool kids call Instagram these days, the Gram. [00:48:11] Speaker A: What a sad world we live in. Yeah. I'd like to point out that Jack is still a young writer, relatively younger than me. [00:48:18] Speaker B: I'm 22 years old. [00:48:20] Speaker A: 22 years old. How do you find the motivation to do things? Like, I know what I was doing when I was 22. I was writing poetry, and I was a giant nerd. You know, my friends are writers, but, like, kids these days. I don't know what the hell they do. Like, what is it that keeps you writing and doing things? [00:48:35] Speaker B: I mean, just. Even if I knew that I would never make a penny off any of my work and no one would ever see it, I would still do it. I have fun doing it. I want to do it. It wouldn't be satisfying to me to have a story in my head. I want to write it down so I can read it again and again. I still reread my stories that I've written. I reread the Song of Sodom and Bloody Mary and all the other things I've done in the workshop because. Just for fun, because I think they're good stories. These are stories I want to see. Yeah, I kind of think it for myself. And you guys are the. The readers. If you like it, that's great, but you're just kind of along for the party. [00:49:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Understood. Yeah. [00:49:06] Speaker B: And that's the way I recommend writers do that, too. Like, write the stories that you want to see or personally want to see. Find a story that has been written yet that you would like to have existed. [00:49:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I went through a period where I was, like, writing political poetry. And, yeah, it was getting published. People were talking about it, but it was kind of like, man, I'm writing about things I don't care about, like, not that I don't care about the world, but I don't want to be writing about Donald Trump. I want to write about demons and the human condition. And if I want to do something political, I want to do it the way I want to do it, not this way, you know. So yeah, writing for clout and fame, it's fine. But you're going to turn yourself into something you don't want to be. [00:49:47] Speaker B: I mean, I do want clout and fame. I don't want for. I don't want to be for something I don't like doing. [00:49:52] Speaker A: Right. [00:49:52] Speaker B: Basically, you know, I want my story to be read, obviously. You know, if a tree falls in the forest on, you know, no one, you get the idea. Like it would be. It'd be pretty useless to enrich humanity if no one cared about it. Read it like no one would enjoy it. [00:50:07] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, oftentimes though, writers are not appreciated in their generation. And that's just the way it goes, man, you know, conversation. And sometimes you're too early, we're too late as it were. [00:50:18] Speaker B: Too early, too late. Sometimes I feel like I'm going too late because I'm writing. I tend to write very vintage feeling science fiction. And I feel like maybe it's outdated at this point. I mean, hopefully not. [00:50:29] Speaker A: It is a wheel. Things come and go and they come again, you know, So I don't think it really matters. [00:50:35] Speaker B: Another thing I want to tell writers, write weird, don't write boring. Write weird. Write whatever comes to mind. You can write a story about anything. Anything. A lot of people, they write stories about like, you know, a piano. And it's the story, it's just about a piano. A regular boring ass piano. Right? A story about a piano that's possessed by a demon and whoever plays it gets, you know, horrible. Sees the future of people dying or something like that. Write a story about a haunted vending machine or something. Write a story about aliens coming to earth to collect fiction. Fictional creatures that they think exist, you know, or maybe free idea machine. [00:51:09] Speaker A: Or maybe as you play the piano the devil gives the demon inside. It gives you like different kinds of sexual pleasure from different notes, you know. [00:51:17] Speaker B: Is this in B flat? [00:51:19] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's like, you know, you start playing like oh de joy or something. Something really cool like some sucks gas. Yeah. And then before you know it, you're like, you know, having this like full body orgasm. You're floating around playing the piano. [00:51:31] Speaker B: I mean, shit, sometimes I'll just come up with titles like weird Shit, I'll come up with, like, weird fucking titles. Put my balls like, okay, let's make a story around that. [00:51:38] Speaker A: You know, Michael Moorcock did. It worked for him, right? [00:51:41] Speaker B: Just write. Write anything. It's better to write shit than nothing at all. Just write. Write it. Whatever comes to your mind. [00:51:46] Speaker A: In summary, write. Just fucking. [00:51:48] Speaker B: You're not gonna write at all. Write something. [00:51:50] Speaker A: I agree. People get very hung up on the planning, and it's like, yeah, I mean, that's fine. I mean, I do a fair amount of planning, but at the end of the day, you gotta do it. [00:51:57] Speaker B: I do no planning, basically. Now, granted, I typically write short stories. It's way easier to write with no plan with a short story than it is for a novel. But even then, I'm not gonna, like, have a chart or any. Or any like that. [00:52:08] Speaker A: Well, I mean, I'm writing a series and I. I have a spreadsheet because I have to keep track of things. I forget a lot, so. [00:52:14] Speaker B: And that works for you, but it doesn't work for me. It made me more confused. And I see so many. All these people, these fucking grifters on you, on. On Instagram and shit, and they're like. So like, oh, get this writing app. You still use Google Docs. Shame on you. Don't use Google Docs. It's like, last time I checked, the greatest piece of literature ever were written by fucking candlelight and quill. So fuck you and you're. Fuck you and your chart and your apps and your bullshit. There's a lot of equipment. [00:52:38] Speaker A: There's a lot of scams. So I'm assuming you fall into my philosophy of you don't need any specialized equipment. I use Microsoft Word, but that's because I grew up using it. And I kind of know. I'm like. I'm like a technomancer with it. I have all these presets and stuff you don't even. [00:52:53] Speaker B: I'm not used to. It's bullshit. I use Google Docs. [00:52:55] Speaker A: You just use Google Docs? Yeah. Like, people pay for, like. I can't remember what they're called. They pay for these, like, novel writing softwares and all this Narskite, you know. [00:53:04] Speaker B: That would just confuse me. [00:53:06] Speaker A: It's stupid. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I agree. This will make me a novelist if I buy this, you know, like. [00:53:13] Speaker B: And it's typically only written for very. A very specific type of novel. Really. I've found, like, writing prompts I find on Instagram. It's just things that only apply to, like, very generic ya. Like for enemy celebrities, kind of. That's not what the. Kind of. That's not what I write. I don't write like that. [00:53:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I was using. [00:53:29] Speaker B: Not my brand. [00:53:30] Speaker A: I was using one because I was ready to choose your own adventure, and I was using one for that. But I just. I don't know. I got tired of it. It was too much of a hassle. [00:53:39] Speaker B: The machine is telling me what to do. [00:53:42] Speaker A: Yeah, whatever. [00:53:44] Speaker B: Just write timelines and, you know, just write a story. You know, just write it. [00:53:48] Speaker A: Just write a fucking story. I agree. My advice is always read a lot and write a lot and show it to other people, because you're. You're gonna be the worst judge of your own work, usually because you're too close to work it, you know, and. [00:54:00] Speaker B: Also start with short stories. Really. I mean, you know, if you want to start with a novel, fine, but, like, I think short stories make for good practice later on. [00:54:07] Speaker A: Yeah, the fundamentals of plotting and pacing and word choice and, yeah, the end product is a lot shorter. And it. You don't feel like as much of a failure if the whole thing is terrible, you know, like, yeah, don't. [00:54:19] Speaker B: Don't constrict yourself to one genre in terms of, like, what you consume. If you want to go on genre and you're writing, so that's fine. But when you're. When you're consuming media, try to, like, watch all kinds of different things. Things or region things, because that would give you more ideas than what the genre is giving you now. [00:54:35] Speaker A: Unless you really, really, really like billionaire BDSM novels, then I guess just write that. [00:54:40] Speaker B: That's why, you know, I mentioned Harlan Ellison, Clive Barker in the same breath. Like, that's pretty. You wouldn't typically mention those two together because they write very different things usually. But I write all I write. It's all across the board. What I write. Fantasy, science fiction, horror. [00:54:53] Speaker A: Right. Also Jack Kirby comics. [00:54:54] Speaker B: I mean, Jack Kirby comics, TV shows, These cartoons, these cartoons. [00:54:59] Speaker A: Hey, I'm a big. I'm a big booster of cartoons. I think people don't give them enough credit, you know, so. [00:55:04] Speaker B: And they still don't get any credit, but it's still. And they still keep coming out. Was just. Just all the time, all over the kids. That's why C.S. lewis was badass. He said, a children's story that can only be loved by children is not a good story at all. I agree. [00:55:16] Speaker A: You know, I think you're the only. [00:55:17] Speaker B: For everyone. [00:55:18] Speaker A: The only person I've talked to who. [00:55:19] Speaker B: Likes CS Lewis this much I do like CS Lewis. CS Lewis, you know, obviously. Oh, he's an apologist. Whatever. Who gives a. He's a good writer. [00:55:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:29] Speaker B: Am I using the shot? [00:55:30] Speaker A: I am a fan of some of those Narnia books. [00:55:33] Speaker B: You know, he had the gall, the nerve to end his children's book fantasy series with all of them dying in a horrible train accident. [00:55:41] Speaker A: Well, they went to heaven, but. Yeah, true. [00:55:43] Speaker B: Well, Susan didn't. Susan went to hell. [00:55:46] Speaker A: She was a. [00:55:47] Speaker B: Okay, Susan. Susan didn't go to hell. But, like, she didn't. [00:55:50] Speaker A: Susan has to, like, Susan dared to wear nylons. [00:55:54] Speaker B: You know, Susan has to live in post World War II Britain as a single, as a teenage girl with her entire family dead. [00:56:01] Speaker A: So. [00:56:01] Speaker B: Hell, yeah, basically. [00:56:04] Speaker A: Nah, I actually, I really like the Last Battle. Until the, the last few pages. I also really like the Silver Chair. I think that's a great dark fantasy novel. [00:56:12] Speaker B: You know, I feel like he peaked too early with lion of the words, probably. [00:56:15] Speaker A: I don't know. I don't know. When your best friend is J.R.R. tolkien, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna go to some fun places. [00:56:21] Speaker B: He had the gall to just introduce Santa Claus in one of his books. [00:56:23] Speaker A: With no explanation, giving out, like, dangerous weapons. Yeah. [00:56:26] Speaker B: Yeah. That's what Santa Claus should be. [00:56:28] Speaker A: Santa Claus is awesome. I love Santa Claus. We have, we have a whole episode about Santa Claus where I just talk. [00:56:32] Speaker B: About make Santa great again. [00:56:34] Speaker A: I have. We have a whole episode about Santa Claus where I just talk about how awesome Santa Claus is and how much I love him even though I'm Jewish. [00:56:40] Speaker B: Didn't you do an episode on Krampus? [00:56:42] Speaker A: Huh? [00:56:43] Speaker B: Didn't you do an episode on Krampus? [00:56:44] Speaker A: It was Krampus and Santa because they're kind of inseparable to me. [00:56:47] Speaker B: They were together. [00:56:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, yeah, they're the same person. You know, that was my argument. [00:56:50] Speaker B: You know, they're two hives of the same coin, a hole or whatever the whatever. [00:56:55] Speaker A: You know, I, I, I kind of like, you know, I'm never sure, like, when Hanukkah. Like, I never, like, Santa might not be real, but, like, you know, I think that's so, you know, it's like when Hanukkah Harry comes by. I'm never sure, like, like I don't want people to get mixed up, you. [00:57:10] Speaker B: Know, So I think it's undeniable that Christmas is more fun than Hanukkah. Not to diss the Jews or anything. [00:57:16] Speaker A: But, I mean, the oil did last a few more days. That's pretty great. [00:57:20] Speaker B: It's a big miracle when you get a dreidel and some slacks I got like a Super Soaker and shit well. [00:57:26] Speaker A: On that note, that's Jack Brennan. He's a great writer, brilliant poet, promising new writer. Do check out his work. I mean, you know the stuff in Death Wish of course. He's been in pretty much all of our editions I don't think you were in the first one right? [00:57:37] Speaker B: No, I wasn't all the. All the ones after that. [00:57:40] Speaker A: Yeah but do check it out. Follow his Instagram. You know maybe someday he'll write a novel maybe someday he'll be your friend. [00:57:46] Speaker B: Too so if I get the money, fucking publish a novel. [00:57:49] Speaker A: There you go. So you know, do write poetry, make art and most importantly love your demons. [00:57:55] Speaker B: Or they will obviously Thomas. [00:57:57] Speaker A: Obviously Thomas. [00:57:58] Speaker B: I stole your line. [00:57:58] Speaker A: I'm sorry it's okay. Sorry. It's alright. I didn't copyright.