Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hi, I'm King Loki, the editor of Death Wish Poetry magazine with one of our awesome writers, we have Mike Linehan with his new piece. That was in the spring edition.
Yeah, spring edition. Resurrection. I don't know. Time. Time passes very, very quickly for me. But, yeah. This piece is called the Body. Hey, Mike. How you doing?
[00:00:21] Speaker B: I am doing well, thank you. Trying to survive this very, very hot day right now and doing my best. But. Yes. Enjoying the summer so far?
[00:00:29] Speaker A: Yeah, as much as we can. Right. You know, with everything going on, I mean.
[00:00:32] Speaker B: Yeah. In the Hellscape.
[00:00:34] Speaker A: You know, the hellscape known as America.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: America.
[00:00:37] Speaker A: The empire formerly known as America.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: Right now I'm just playing the Empire Strikes Back music in my head.
[00:00:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. That's where we are. Right. Speaking of which, did you want to read your poem?
[00:00:51] Speaker B: Of course, yes. I got to put on my good old slam poet Persona for a second because this one actually. Well, I'll explain it more in a moment once I've read through it. So, yes, this one is called the Body. When people ask me why I love metal music, the demon dissonance, the writhing mosh pit of vipers, I say I was raised Catholic.
When people ask me why I like horror stories, the bloody knife, the allure of foggy graveyard that tell them I was raised Catholic. I mean, what could be more ominous than gathering in an incense fog church and staring at the carcass of a deity, praise his sacrifice and eating his literal flesh and blood. When people ask me why I stand with the marginalized and the oppressed, those seen only as beggars, I can only sigh and say nothing.
Though I now avert my eyes from the crucifix. Though hymns taste bitter on my tongue, Though prayers feel like missed calls, I still hold reverence for that carpenter turned messiah. Son of immigrants burdened with blessing, Friend of sex workers and tax collection collectors, Thorn in the side of Pharisees executed as an example by an empire.
Weren't we all taught that we are the body of God? His feet treading the path, his hands mending the broken. So that even if God seems silent, we are not and we have power in our own palms. What a mockery we have made of the holy. Stealing the corpse of compassion, bleaching it under American sun, parading it along banners of status quo and Bootstrap's Gospel. Behold these ruins, this desecration, a den of wolves and salivating moths. Fingers probing and plucking innocence as flower petals resplendent and gold. Eyes blind to beggars upon the doorstep. When people ask me about my love for metal music and horror, a charnel house of cacophony, my disillusionment and my fist in the air, I say, look at where I came from.
Look upon this body. Rigor mortis and rotting broken limbs reaching toward the silent sky, Mouth open like an empty grave, waiting for the crows to feast upon divine that is now dead. I ask you, what have we harvested from the dried bones of our own divinity?
Do you see this pit of vipers? Hear the symphony off key like Pharisee melodies and demon dissonance? You stand in the fog, shrouded ruins of this godless cathedral. Do you hear something shuffling in the shadows? Grin like bloody knives and splintered scripture between his teeth? Behold these bodies beneath the floorboards, Bloodied fingertips from clawing for escape, their throats full of headstones, their bones bound to form foundations of this church.
Don't you feel like screaming? Yeah.
[00:03:29] Speaker A: It's a tour de force.
[00:03:31] Speaker B: Thank you.
Just a little bit of background on it.
I was trying to remember, I think this one I wrote, actually, while I was on slam poetry team last year. But I think I wrote it in the fall, so it was like 20, 23 maybe.
[00:03:48] Speaker A: Okay, so after you had finished and published Porchlight, right?
[00:03:53] Speaker B: I had finished. I'm trying to remember if I had published it before or after, but I had finished putting it together.
It's just waiting to be released, I think, at that point. But, yeah, it got, you know, polished, polished up last year after some, you know, revisions and whatnot. Yeah, I mean, did you have a particular question to ask about the purpose of it, or should I just go into, like, what's it all about?
[00:04:14] Speaker A: Well, you know, I have a pretty good idea, but why don't you just talk and tell me?
[00:04:19] Speaker B: So I will admit the inspiration came from a comedian I've seen on mostly Instagram, Luke. Severed, I think his name is.
But the first bit I saw from him was he's like, oh, yeah, Going to metal shows.
People tell me a lot that, like, I need Jesus. And it's like, how do you think this all started? I spent, you know, every Sunday in church, you know, eat his body, drink of his blood.
Seeing a guy nailed on a cross, like, that's metal as fuck. And I'm like, you know, that's a fair point. And then got me thinking about, like, that connection with myself and horror. Horror itself also has this kind of overlap, too, with religion, too, especially with Catholicism being very, like we said, like, very gory. And there's, you know, no shortage of, like, religious horror, typically demon possession, stuff like that.
But I really latched onto the idea of, you know, growing up, you know, being told, you know, we are the body of God. You know, we are what we bring into the world, trying to do be a force of good.
But then looking at how the. Especially the capital C church itself hasn't really met that or has certainly lost its way somewhere along the way, and it's been, you know, at pretty destructive force for generations, centuries. And yeah, just wrestling with that and kind of, you know, kind of digging up this, like, rotting corpse of an ideal and showing it be like, hey, you know, what the hell is going on here?
[00:05:55] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, that's. That's a good point. I find that this piece is trying very hard to appeal to the, the cultural, like, idea of Jesus as, like, you know, the. The man of the. The, you know, the. The Messiah of the downtrodden friend to, you know, the little guy, really.
So the doctrine or anything like that, when. When talking about American society, those, let's say, let's call them Catholic values are kind of like universal to Christianity. Right. Like, your typical guy who doesn't really go to church that often, but thinks of himself as a Christian and maybe hates them damn liberals, you know, and votes for Trump.
It's like, well, Your idea of Mr. Jesus is this. Is this totally chill guy that stood up to the Pharisees and died for it.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: Right, Right.
Yeah, it's this, this disconnect that we've seen more and more of, especially in the past, you know, decade, especially with the ride, rise of Trump and all that crap. Right, right. Is that, you know, there's the disconnect between, you know, I'm not a churchgoer anymore. My parents are practicing Catholics still. But just seeing the disconnect between these people who have. Some have doubled down on the whole, like, well, you know, Jesus wasn't this way. Some have even been like, well, we don't follow Jesus anymore. We follow the, like, real idea, you know, the Americanized version. I go, yeah, yeah, not really supported by any scripture.
That's what you're using as your basis.
It's all bad. And like, especially with shit going on currently with, you know, deportations and alligator Alcatraz and all that, like, literally all of this can be debunked. Like, oh, I'm a follower of Christ, but I believe in Trump is like, you just open up the, the, you know, revelation. Like, when I was hungry, you fed me. When I was poor, you gave me place to Stay all that stuff. And then just the complete opposite that we're doing.
[00:08:00] Speaker A: Here's the frustrating thing. It's like immigrants are the current scapegoat that the administration is going after in order to seize power, and Trump is out there going, thank you, God, we love you. And it's like, you know, you bring it back to. I keep going back to this one stanza. What could be more ominous than gathering in an incense fog church and staring at the carcass of a deity, praising his sacrifice and then eating his literal flesh and blood? And it's like.
Like that idea of the Jesus is very primal. I mean, it clearly comes from, like, older religions and stuff like that.
And that's probably the real core. It's, It's. It's the God dying and giving up his body so that everyone can flourish. And, like, that's just not an American ideal. I don't think it's. I don't think Christianity is compatible with capitalism or this weird fascist nightmare that we're currently watching unfold.
[00:08:48] Speaker B: Right, right.
Yeah. And I mean, it's like, I've seen for years the idea, like, you know, Jesus was a, you know, a brown socialist fighting against the empire and all this, all the stuff. And it's like, okay, cool. But, like, as time goes on, I'm like, But it's not even really an exaggeration. It's not hyperbole. Like, it literally.
That's what he called for.
And just.
Yeah. And also, I always got a kick out of the Catholics have the thing about, you know, witchcraft or whatnot and be like, ah, this evil stuff. And like, we're literally lighting incense. We're saying, chance, we're not. Not metaphorically. Because apparently the Catholics believe that, like, what's it.
I'm going to mess up the word believe that, like, by saying this holy thing that we turn the bread and wine into literal body and blood of Christ. Like, that's magic.
Yeah. Transmutation. Yeah.
[00:09:46] Speaker A: Oh, no, no, it's transubstantiation.
[00:09:48] Speaker B: Transubstantiation, yes. Yeah, but, like, that's. That's magic. You're believing in magic, so.
Yeah, again, whatever, man.
[00:09:58] Speaker A: Man. They put a lot of emphasis on that Eucharist. Like, I have a friend whose Catholic mom has. She always has these, like, weird little Catholic magazines and these little publications that are just about the Eucharist and, like, they're nuts. I have one upstairs. It's just like, how can we know ourselves when we don't know the Eucharist? The Eucharist is so Important. And they talk about it like it's this mystery that blinds the universe together. And it's like you're just symbolically eating crackers.
[00:10:24] Speaker B: Like, yeah, which, like, I'm in all over the place when it comes to spirituality. But like, you can believe in that stuff. Like, I empower you to do so. But like, there also has to be some sort of self awareness about it too, especially when you're pointing the finger at, at other religions and whatnot. But yeah, unfortunately it, you know, seems that Christianity has just been weaponized for a while, but more evidently, you know, recent years, I was at a local pride parade or pride celebration with my wife, and there was some guy on the street who I should have, should have figured out. As soon as he handed me that pamphlet, it said, you know, like, abortion is murder or something. But I took it. It was all covered in like rainbows, but you open it up and it's got like a dead baby inside talking about abortion. I'm like, what the fuck?
[00:11:10] Speaker A: Yeah, every time.
[00:11:11] Speaker B: Just every time. And you know, it's not a pride celebration. My dude, like, he knows, he knows the audience.
[00:11:18] Speaker A: But here's the thing. Like, I think this piece was written before.
I don't remember there's so many of these characters in our culture right now, but one of them said something about the sin of compassion, which was like, crazy to me. Like, what a crazy thing to hear.
And you have, you have this line here. You know, what a mockery we have made of the holy. Stealing the corpse of compassion, bleaching it under an American sun. Pray to get under banners of status quo and bootstraps. Gospel. Yeah. Like, my thing is that like, Jesus would have been kind, you know?
[00:11:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:50] Speaker A: Wouldn't show up yelling and screaming. Like the only people he was mean to were those money lenders in the.
[00:11:55] Speaker B: One of my favorite stories because it is just so punk and because, yeah, everything else is like, pretty chill. And then that one time he just lost his and just kicked people out. I'm like, I mean, good for you.
[00:12:07] Speaker A: It was those money lenders. Like, he. There's not a story where he picks up a rock and starts throwing it at someone, calling him a harlot, calling them a harlot or a thief, or calling for those people across the river to be ex, to be genocided. Like, that never happens. Like, the stuff I don't like in the Bible is when he's like calling non Jews like dogs or, I don't know, preaching about going the people who will go to hell. Like that's the stuff where I'm like, ah, this is just the same character. But what stands out, of course, is the open handed compassion that he offers. And like, that's not a virtue. And what, where I was going with this was like, it sounds like what you're concerned about is like, people are more concerned with the ritual and the theater over what the ideals ought to be.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: Right? No, absolutely, like, and again, I can appreciate when it comes to religion that rituals and practice are important part of it, but if you're not following the concepts and the values behind it, then it's an empty gesture. It's. It's straight up hypocrisy. I was actually thinking of something recently not having to do with religion, but it kind of was inspired by the. This quote, which again, being a lapsed Catholic and now I still can't just forget any of it, is something about like, beware that the Pharisees, the hypocrites who like pray loudly in public and like make this big show of their faith, blessed are the ones who do it more in private or something. Like, it doesn't have to be this big thing, contrition or compassion. Like, you don't have to do it for the views or the likes. Like, you just be a good fucking person to other people.
That's it.
[00:13:50] Speaker A: Right. It puts me in mind of the Kurt Cobain where he's like, he's the one, he likes all our pretty songs, he likes to shoot his guns and he likes to sing along, but he don't know what it means, you know?
[00:14:00] Speaker B: Right. It's. Yeah, it's. But yeah, like what you're talking about, like being at a pride event, like most of his, you know, the people he hung out with were, you know, the fishermen, the sex workers, you know, like, and I'm sure there was preaching on the side, but that was at least at the beginning. The true meaning of like unconditional love was like, it wasn't like, here's my pamphlet, believe in me or else you go to hell. It was, it was a process.
It was still rooted in improving the lives of people rather than just making it what it is now.
[00:14:34] Speaker A: You know, go to church and get married and pay your taxes or you're gonna go to hell.
[00:14:40] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. And, yeah. And of course the irony of like the, you know, trying to deport, like the idea is like, if Jesus was alive today, like, he would absolutely be called like a socialist. He would be deported or whatever. It would be like, you can't make this shit up. It Would be funny if it wasn't, you know, actually happening and, you know, on point.
[00:15:01] Speaker A: You know, the new term they're throwing around is remigration, where they're looking to, like, take people that are citizens and encourage them to deport, like, self deport. And it's just like, what's. What are we doing? Like, Croatia is a. Is a. What is kind of. I think it's Croatia.
[00:15:18] Speaker B: They're.
[00:15:18] Speaker A: They're pretty white and they're. They're not doing too well.
Like, what's this ethnostate business? So, I don't know. I think that, like, my thing is that, like, right now I'm writing a lot of poetry that is reflecting on my frustration and weakness and feelings of inadequacy in the face of, like, an oppressive zeitgeist.
Your poem feels like it's more focused on people's. Your frustration with people's hypocrisy. Because I get the sense that you like Mr. Jesus as a. As a figure, as a character. Right.
If nothing else. Yeah, like, that's probably fair to say.
[00:15:56] Speaker B: Yeah, no, and that's fair. I. I will say that, like, recently, too. I mean, for better, for worse, that the current climate does lend itself to writing protest songs, protest poetry, because, you know, that's. That's how we survive and that's how we fight back. But, yeah, no, it's.
You know, no matter what my feelings are about Catholicism and Christianity in general now, the. The idea of, you know, Jesus and what he stood for, that is still important to me.
And the, like you said, compassion, the empathy, and the idea that someone could come out and say that. The sin of empathy. I'm like, what the fresh fuck are you talking about?
Yeah, it's the hypocrisy of it. And, you know, I think it should be just said, you know, just to acknowledge that, you know, a little disclaimer is that, you know, this obviously doesn't go for all Christians. You know, unfortunately, it's just the loudest ones that seem to be the biggest hypocrites. But, like, I actually know someone who was instrumental when I was younger and more religious. I would have assumed she was a little bit more traditional herself, but she's actually been you know, standing, you know, in these protests along with these other people as well. Like, it. You know, she. To me, she is embodying what that should be all about.
And it's this idea that, like, it's funny to me that I've seen sometimes I felt more welcome in other religious circles than I have in Christianity, like, going to the Satanic temple in Salem or I've got some friends who are witches or, you know, pagans. Like, the way they talk about it is, like, this sounds empowering and great. Like, there's none of the judgment and the bullshit and the this us versus them rhetoric. Like, it's about protecting people. And it seems that unfortunately, a lot of key figures in.
Or.
Yeah. Have fallen away from that.
[00:17:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, I always have a lot of sympathy for people that are into paganism because they're, what, fixated on, like, environmentalism, being kind to people and all that stuff. Like, it all just becomes like an, you know, another metaphor to clothe your own beliefs in. Like, I love the character of Thor. I think he's fantastic. He should be more mainstream. But, like, that makes sense to me, you know, And I don't believe in literal deities. I'm not capable of it. So it's. It's more of the idea of the thing. And I wish that, like.
I wish that, like, people were more honest with their beliefs. But that being said, I appreciate that your poem, it closes with this, like, this spooky, like, I'm gonna call it a tableau where you ask the reader, like, to realize, like, you know, they're standing in the ruins of what could have been. What could have been. Right.
And I love it, like, these bodies beneath the floorboards, bloodied, fingertips from clawing for escape, throats full of headstones, their bones bound to form the foundations of this church.
Don't you feel like screaming? And it's like, it puts me in mind of. Because, like, you do have the bit about, you know, worshiping the carcass of the deity. But there's another morbid part of Christianity, and that's the martyrs. Like, there are countless. Like, you could. You could spend, like, years just reading these, like, grisly, horrific stories. And, like, you know, I feel like Christianity really puts a premium. Premium on suffering. Well, Catholicism really puts a premium on suffering for God, as it were, when you're kind of like, well, you should be suffering God's will, which should be to show kindness and make the world a better place. And, like, here we've.
We're playing into the fascist playbook of scapegoating people to seize more power to build our church. Right. Is that an accurate summation?
[00:19:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
Literally, what I was getting at. I was gonna say, too, from a poetic standpoint, that the last stands are there. I'm sucker for. I guess you would call it, like, A reprise where, you know, the images kind of come back full circle and are reused. One of my favorite poems from a local poet saw, like, probably 10, 12 years ago. He came out with that, and I was blown away. I was like, oh, shit, I want to do that. But, like, so it seemed like a perfect thing to use here, but, like, it. Yeah, it's exactly that.
And again, it's not even hyperbole. Like, especially, like, was it in Canada, like, finding the places where they had done, like, the RE Education center for, like, indigenous children and, like, literal, like, bodies found beneath these schools and churches? And you're just like, this is. This is literal. This.
I'm not even making this up. And, yeah, it just kind of comes back to the don't you feel like screaming? Which I feel like is. Should be any just rational, empathic person's response to, like, really seeing all of this is like, yes, we should be doing something about it. But you. You should be angry. You should be horrified. You should feel something. Looking at all of this.
[00:21:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, you should feel something. That's a good.
[00:21:13] Speaker B: You should feel something.
[00:21:16] Speaker A: I mean, I feel like screaming. Do you feel like screaming?
[00:21:18] Speaker B: Mm, yeah.
[00:21:20] Speaker A: It's a really.
It's a really, really tough place to be in, and it's really upsetting when, like, you know, the loudest voices are tarnishing something that you think is kind of neat and full of value. My last real question is, obviously this was written for, like, a slam poet poetry event, but is this possibly fodder.
[00:21:40] Speaker B: For another book that you bring it up? It is included in the collection. I am trying to get it submitted to some, like, book contests and stuff, so we'll see. Fingers crossed. But, yes, it is part of a larger collection that is tying mostly into actually horror, religion, and just social commentary in general. But, yeah, it's an integral part of that collection there.
[00:22:04] Speaker A: Excellent. Okay, cool. Good to know. All right.
[00:22:06] Speaker B: All right. All right.
[00:22:07] Speaker A: Is there anything else that you want to talk about with the body or anything else in general?
[00:22:13] Speaker B: I think my closing, and just one final thought is to try to end on, like, a sort of hopeful note, because especially the past couple years, I might have brought it up in my first interview that, like, you know, from the outside, you look at horror or even, like, you know, the music. I like metal and hardcore stuff like that. It looks aggressive and, like, dark and morbid and, like, yes, it is.
But it's also a symbol for, you know, there's a reason that a lot of people who gravitate towards it who have Felt othered or felt like they're not included, welcome at the table with everyone else. And being that, that it offers a space for people to find community and also to find a silver lining and see themselves in it. I'm reading a book right now about that falls into Queer Horror where it's a bunch of kids sent to a conversion camp in the 90s.
Fifteen years later they come back and very IT style, have to destroy this creature that was like messing with their lives. But it's happening here.
[00:23:16] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's kind of popular right now.
[00:23:19] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's. But it's, you know, reclaiming the space for ourselves and saying that, you know, there is something good we're going to find in this, all that it appears to be and, you know, the horrors persist. But so do I.
[00:23:33] Speaker A: That's cool. I like that. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean, you know, we don't listen to Behemoth because just because it's demonic and spooky and sounds cool, we listen to it because there's something there, right. There's just striving towards whether it's individuality or finding your own light in the darkness. I mean, metal is just another form of art and like all art, art is all about expression and. Yeah, I love that. I appreciate that. That's really cool.
So, yeah.
Follow Mike on Mike on the mic. Links in description and places.
[00:24:06] Speaker B: Yes. Yep.
[00:24:08] Speaker A: Read, Read the Porch Light. It is for sale on Amazon and was it Lulu?
[00:24:13] Speaker B: Mike should also. I don't know when this episode will be posted, but I was honored to be invited onto a pickup team this year headed by my friend Luca Erowskine, called the Peaky Binders and the team of trans masc and non binary poets. We're doing some competitions this summer and we do have a. I think you pronounce it coffee. Coffee, whatever. And we've got a chat book on there of our.
Some of our work. So I can send that along to you if you wouldn't mind including that as well.
[00:24:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, do so. Yeah, yeah. And do, do check this book out. It's fucking brilliant. The Porch Light is beautiful. It's a. It's a book about growth, about mistakes, about finding your way as a man, really and not turning into a sociopath or an asshole. It's a really beautiful piece. And if you've read the Body, a lot of the poems in this book are written in a very similar kind of what, how do I want to say, Proselytizing style? I don't know. That doesn't sound right.
[00:25:14] Speaker B: Get what you're getting at.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: Mike is not preaching. It's more of like. He talks very extemporaneously in his writing, and it's very captivating, for lack of a better word.
[00:25:27] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:25:27] Speaker A: Do Check that out. Do follow Mike. He's super cool. He does slam poetry. Slam til you die, which is based.
[00:25:35] Speaker B: In where Slam for your Die. Based in Manchester, New Hampshire.
That.
[00:25:40] Speaker A: Yeah. There.
I have a poor memory. So, yeah.
Make art, write poetry and love your demons. Ave Satanas.
[00:25:51] Speaker B: Cool. Hell yeah.
It.
