Neil Gaiman: Celebrities Are Not Your Friends

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Are you ready to taste the demon tout? All right. Right. So I made a decision early on that I was not going to read any of his work. So I will not. Because he doesn't deserve a voice here. Instead, I'm gonna tell a story. A brief story, to be sure. Back when I was in college, my professor, you know, this was my last semester, he asked us, why is our society obsessed with monsters? Right? No one said a word. We were all seniors. We were fucking done. But he repeated the question over and over again. Why? Why are we obsessed with monsters? Why do we love monsters? So, being me, I imagine Monster island with Godzilla, Rodan and Anguirus, all with their cute, rubbery faces waving to me slowly and the soft Japanese light. And then I thought of Frankenstein, Dracula and the Wolfman, and I'm just feeling happy. And he asks again, why do we love monsters? So be me. My hand shoots up and I'm like, without hesitation when he calls on me, because monsters are awesome. Professor's taken aback. He says, monsters are awesome. Jeffrey Dahmer is awesome. Ted Bundy is awesome. And I'm like, what are you talking. Those aren't monsters, you know, those are. Those are people. Those are people who did bad things. And he goes, that's what the monster is. And I'm like, I thought you meant, like, Godzilla. So my point being that, of course, monsters come in all shapes and sizes, and many of us identify with monsters willingly and at times, unwillingly. That being said, we're here to talk about Neil Gaiman and, well, monsters of his ilk. You know, monsters like J.K. rowling, Marilyn Manson or Orson Scott Card. And to be sure, I'm gonna give you a trigger warning. My name is King Loki. That's old Norse for Daniel Sokoloff. And thanks for joining us. We've got Adrian Ca and our newest host, Brittany. Say hi, everyone. [00:02:04] Speaker B: Hi. We're here. [00:02:07] Speaker A: Yeah, we are. So let's talk about Neil Gaiman. I just want to go on record saying that I found Mr. Gaiman back when I was in high school. You know, I read Season of Mists and most of the Sandman when I was that young. And it was incredibly formative, you know, I mean, I used to have a lot of heroes. And he was the first writer I saw writing about queer people. He was the first writer I saw making the devil and Loki do new and exciting things. And funnily enough, my, you know, the true name Loki Wolfather, I got that from Season of Mists. When Odin goes down to see Loki in the hollow of the earth, you know, and it's funny because, like, even my. My books, you know, that I write now, my Demonland books, they've got their roots in that book. You know, I didn't realize it, but all these years later, that initial idea of, like, the angels living in a distant city, distant not just from Earth, but from God himself, and then them not really knowing much about where they come from, that comes from Gaiman. And it's. It's hard ca. I mean, have you read Mr. Gaiman? [00:03:09] Speaker B: I've read American Gods, Nancy Boys, and I never read. You know, I was never super into comics, but I know that his comic series is beloved by many, many, many. So I'm familiar with it. You know, I've seen some of that work, but I haven't liked. [00:03:27] Speaker A: There's very little like it in the world. It is literally genre defying, defining and defying. It's. [00:03:34] Speaker B: Were you into that, like, when it was, like, coming out in real time, or is that something? [00:03:38] Speaker A: Okay, no, it came out in the 90s. I. I came of age in the 2000s, so. Yeah, Adrian, go ahead. [00:03:44] Speaker C: I got it when I was in high school. I'm in my 40s now, so it was the early 90s. And I remember the first copy of Sandman that I got and I read, you know, it was the first one, and there was Death, and. And, you know, she's basically like this amazing kind of cheerful goth chick who's, like, really kind. Like, Death was kind. And she says peachy keen. And, you know, I have said peachy keen at least 10 times every day since I read that comic book in high school. Like, someone will ask me how my day is. It's peachy keen. I. I literally said that on a film set this last week. Like, and I hate part of it now. [00:04:30] Speaker A: When you first meet her, she's feeding pigeons, you know. [00:04:33] Speaker C: Yes, she's Mary Poppins. She's literally like Mary Poppins, but death. [00:04:39] Speaker A: And she's. She's. She's Mary Poppins in. In tight black jeans, a tank top and a. And a very cool, stylish un. And, like, the goth girl makeup and wild black hair. [00:04:50] Speaker C: Sometimes she's amazing, cool character. And I, like, I identified with her more than, you know, anything I had read at that time. Like, she was like. She's still, like, part of me. [00:05:04] Speaker A: So, yeah, American Gods was a very, very, very important novel for me growing up, too. I was someone who, you know, I deconstructed religion at a pretty relatively young age. I was 13. You know, I shrugged off a lot of indoctrination to do it and American and like, you know, I really like the Norse gods. I kind of prefigure myself through, like, those archetypes and, you know, reading this weird book about, like, a guy who's running errands for, you know, Odin in the form of Mr. Wednesday was like, whoa, dude, you know. [00:05:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I love that novel. I mean, I was still, you know, in my religiosity or whatever when I read it, but I've always just, like, loved Lore and like the various different, like, yeah. Oh, wow. [00:05:48] Speaker A: Yeah, he wrote Dan, right? With an exclamation point. You know, signed copy. It's, it's pretty devastating. You know, it's pretty bad. And it's not just like, like, it's similar with Manson. I, I thought this wouldn't hurt me as much because I've already gone through this with Marilyn Manson where he's another one who set himself up as the king of the outcasts, and here he is destroying people's lives. You know, bite. [00:06:13] Speaker B: You know, I have one that was particularly devastating, which was the vocalist for Anti Flag, Justin Sane. [00:06:21] Speaker A: Okay, okay. [00:06:23] Speaker B: I mean, here was this, here's this political punk band that has always stood up for, you know, the disenfranchised. And I've been to so many of their shows, and every time they have been up there with their literal fucking bullhorn, you know, megaphone thing, and they'll, they'll scream out, you know, for, for, against injustices. They, they, they'll say, you know, women, protect women and abortion is health care and, like, literally, like, proclaiming to be a spokesperson for the disenfranchised and the oppressed classes. And then I come to find out that he also was a literal, serial, you know, abuser of women. Like, truly several stories coming out, and we're talking several stories, many women. And I listened to an interview with one of his main whistleblower victims that was so difficult to get through because of the nature of this, of what she was describing, she endured at the hands of this man that I, I. We talked about this before in our episode about the dueling tarot decks. What is this whole entire reality of concept? Is there such a thing as separate the art from the artist? And we said, well, it's nuanced. Might depend on the situation, might depend on the severity of the, you know, transgressions. And these are those. We're well past the line, right? When you get to that point where, like, you're a serial, vicious abuser of women. Okay? We can no longer enjoy the art. Like, I cannot listen to that music anymore, you know? [00:08:04] Speaker A: Yeah, I hear that. I'm somewhat there with Manson. It's just things are so bad, and no one else writes with as vicious a tongue as him. You know, he has this one song off his new album where he's like, you know, I want destruction, I want towers to crumble. Who would want to wake up? And this is your world? And it's like, I. I didn't pay him for that because he doesn't get my money anymore. Like, I have other ways of getting things. But at the same time, it's like, you know, some of the stuff that he did is, like, unspeakable. I mean, you know, I would throw him under the bus just for Evan Rachel Wood. But I always think about Esme Bianco, who, you know, he tortured. Here's the thing, and this is true of Mr. Gaiman as well. They have women they were with who they did not treat this way. You know, like, Amanda Palmer, whatever, big divorce. But with Manson, it's like, you know, Manson dated these powerful women. He dated Dita Von Teese. They're like, we don't know him to be this way, but I stand with the victims. And it's. What it boils down to is like, they like to go after women who have no agency, who can't run. You know, Esme Bianca was, what. She had a. A work visa or something, and he held that over her head. He was playing her sex tapes for his guests and calling her fat and stuff. She only got away because she got the job on Game of Thrones playing Tyrion's lady friend, Brittany. Did you. Do you have any. Do you want to talk about Mr. Gaiman or anything else? [00:09:25] Speaker D: So my relationship with Gaiman is definitely a lot less than I'd say you three. I know him from Coraline, and that's the book that I grew up with and that I grew up reading. And I would say that I relate more so to the topic. I. I was a teenager in the 2010s, like, from, like, 2013, 2014 to, like, 2018. And one thing that I feel like I can relate to on this, there was a really big epidemic of, like. Of artists, of bands like, that would go to Vans Warp Tour. I think one of them was all Time low. So many women were coming forward of being my age and going to Vans Warped Tour, going to all of these shows, and they're. It's almost like an epidemic in the pop, like, screamo community. [00:10:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:11] Speaker D: Of these girls being abused and these girls being taken advantage of. And it's just this horrible, sick, sinking feeling because, you know, when you're a teenager, you're sitting here and you got these posters of these boys on your. On your wall, and you're like, oh, like, you're. You're. You think you're cute, you're dreaming of them. And then as an adult, you get the sinking feeling of, oh, they would have liked me back. And it just. [00:10:37] Speaker A: Yeah. They wouldn't have admired you, though, for your art or anything. They would have, you know. [00:10:41] Speaker D: Yeah, exactly. And it's just this devastatingly sinking feeling of realizing that you don't know them. And it's that true. It's that dawning of adulthood, of, no, you don't know your idols. You don't know the people that you really look up to. And it really brings up that topic of parasocial relationship. [00:11:04] Speaker A: Right, right, right. And that, of course, brings us to our thesis, which is that celebrities are not your friends. You don't know them. You're consuming their art and you're consuming their public face. And that. That applies to everyone. That applies to us, you know, those of you watching us, that applies to, you know, Adrian was having a bit with Trent Reznor and she ended up being right about whatever, but I'm like, you still don't know him. [00:11:26] Speaker C: No, that's the thing. Like, this is something I'm personally, like, seeing about myself. Like, I always had hero worship issues, like, from David Bowie to David lynch to Trent Reznor to Neil fucking Gaiman. Like, it's so bad. Neil is the first one that has broken my heart like this. And, like, I've had to do a whole bunch of soul searching over this. Like, it's, It's. [00:11:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I think what's so devastating is it feels like a betrayal. Like when we have integrated, like, you know, hearing these stories and, like, what the art of these creators has done for us and our, like, identity and, like, who we are, like, as we're developing into defining ourselves and knowing ourselves, and we. [00:12:12] Speaker D: We're. [00:12:13] Speaker B: We're seeing ourselves in these characters and we're integrating themes from. From these novels and, you know, books and things like that, and we're like, yeah, so deeply, like, interwoven with it. It genuinely feels like a personal betrayal. And then you feel. Because you feel like you've integrated some of this into your you. Ness, into your selfhood, you feel dirty and you're like, oh, my God. Like, how do I get this out of my body? Because I'm disgusted, dude. [00:12:42] Speaker D: It's a true process, and I really feel like. So here's another layer to it from my end. Me and my partner, we go to a lot of different conventions. We go to, I think, like, five different conventions a year, and we meet a lot of voice actors for our favorite shows and artists and so on and so forth and everything that we hear every single time without fail. Oh, my God. It's you guys that make this happen. Like, the artists talking to us. It's you guys that make this happen. I'm so appreciative of you being a fan. I love you. You so dearly. So hearing the artists say these things to the fans, it creates that relationship with the fans. For the fans to feel that betrayal, it's like digging those fingers in, really. [00:13:26] Speaker A: So. So. So with Palmer and Gaiman in particular. So I've had this, like, this complicated relationship with Gaiman because, like, on one hand, he's been incredibly influential to me, but I also really hated him. If you guys ever saw Is it Midnight in Paris? [00:13:39] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:13:39] Speaker A: Is that the movie? Yeah, that's the movie. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Okay, so, yeah. So Midnight in Paris. There's that wonderful scene where the guy asks Hemingway, will you read my novel? He says, I will not read your novel. I hate it. He's like, you read it. He's like, either it's bad and I hate it because it's bad, or it's so good that I hate that I didn't write it. And that's how I felt about the Sandman. It felt like a wiser. More like older Dan from the future had written this already. And I was like, no, these are my influences. The Bible, John Milton, fucking Norse mythology, Shakespeare. Those are my influences. Those are the things I love. I should have written this. And I was pissed. I was furious. And, like, I heard that Gaiman was this guy who was like, kind of like my Persona now, where I, you know, I try to promote, like, independent writers. And, you know, my sign off on this podcast is write poetry. You know, make art. That's what Gaiman did. I'm like, you. You made my art already. You know what I mean? And I hear that Palmer is like, oh, we don't have fans. We only have friends. And it's like, that's encouraging. The parasocial relationship. That is encouraging. This flirtation with. Come into my house. And then you read about how, you know, Scarlet Pavlovich was invited by Amanda Palmer into her house so that she could bathe in his garden. And, oh, yeah, come into my house, watch my kids. You're my friend. Get molested by my husband. You know, she literally, like. [00:15:06] Speaker C: Like, she fed her to him. It's really. [00:15:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:15:10] Speaker C: And then wrote a song about it, making herself the victim. [00:15:13] Speaker A: Like, yeah, it's pretty gruesome. [00:15:15] Speaker C: It's not great to love her, too. I had pictures of the Dresden Dolls on my art locker in college. Like, I was a huge Dresden Dolls fan way before she and Neely ever got together. And now it's like two birds, one stone type thing because they're both culpable. And it's disgusting. Like, it's just disgusting. It's horrifying. I. I just. [00:15:37] Speaker A: I. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I want to highlight the parasocial relationship thing. I mean, you're probably in several. If you're listening to this. Like, I watch YouTube called Red Letter Media. You know, I refer to it as Mike and J. Just because to me, they're my friends, even though I've never met them. They go out of their way not to interact with their fans because they don't want anyone coming even close to their personal lives. But it's a thing we all do on some level. You might do it with Kramer and Seinfeld. What the fuck do people watch these days? Oh, my God. Media is fractured. [00:16:04] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:16:05] Speaker A: Whatever. [00:16:06] Speaker D: Supernatural is a good example. [00:16:09] Speaker A: Yeah, that's kind of. That's kind of my point. Like, we all do it to a certain degree. We get invested in stuff, in the people we watch, you know, and I think what a lot of people are going through, because, you know, I mean, I was speaking with, you know, an associate over in the uk, and he was telling me that Harry Potter was very, very, very important to a lot of queer people in you in the uk. And obviously people the world over love loved Harry Potter. Queer people the world over interacted with this, wrote their fan fiction, put on their plays and made their fan arts and so on and so forth. But apparently in the uk, this was like a big thing because she was theirs. And they all went through this when she came out as a rabid transphobe and then got worse and expanded into Holocaust denialism and all that nourish kite, you know? And it's like, how do you protect yourself once you realize you're in a Paranormal. Paranormal. Yeah, Parasocial relationship. It is paranormal. Parasocial relationship. And where do you go from there? Because, like, at the end of the day, like, a lot of what I'm hearing is you take your fandom and you apply it to something else. Like, so something that I read in an essay was that fan culture is. It's a pernicious thing. You know, these nerds, people like us, they. They take Spider man comics or Star Trek or, you know, whatever. Whatever nerdy thing it might be, and they make their entire identity about that. They make their costumes, they collect their comic books. I mean, fuck, I've got more Thor comics than I could read in a lifetime. Not true. I've read them all. Haha jokes on you. But point is, is that, like, I used to do that, you know, Hellboy comics, Thor comics, Norse mythology, all that stuff I based. I talked about Mike Mignola, Neil Gaiman, Stephen King. You know, I've moved past it, like, since the Manson breakup. I went through, like, I. Mostly I spend all my headspace in my Demonland books. Like. Like, I'm just building my own stories. And I mean, like, not everybody can do that, but there are more constructive ways to build an identity, right? Like having ownership and knowledge of like, of the year Gwen Stacy died and how many green goblins there have been. It's cool when you're going to see the Spider man movie that you know all this stuff and you can gatekeep people and be mean to them because whatever. But what else you got going on? You know? I don't know. What do you guys think? I mean, we've all had to deconstruct, so have you guys dealt with this? [00:18:35] Speaker C: Okay, so, I mean, we all know that I've got my freaking vampire obsession. Like, David lynch just passed away and he's been like my favorite director for forever. And he was not without problems too, but they weren't like this. I think being able to like. I think this is like, forced me on like, a very personal level to look at how I do. Like we had that conversation about Trent Reznor. Like, I take my things very seriously. Like the music that saved my life, the movies that have saved my life, the books that have saved my life. And like, it does all become, like, part of me. And I'm like, I'm the person that can tell you who was in white and what that movie was and what other movies they're in. Like, we all know that I'm that person at this point. And I do sometimes think of them as like, people that I know. Like, you know, the Trent Reznor ticket thing where people were trying to sell the Nine Inch Nails tickets for, like 800 to $400 before they were even on sale. And I was like, wouldn't do that. And Daniel had to be like, okay, Adrian, but, like, this is something you need to know. Trent is not your friend, and he's not my friend. I don't know him. I've made jewelry for his wife, and she wasn't actually very nice. You know, like, it's a thing. And, like, having the validation of, like, when he sold the tickets and they were only, like, $49, I was like, I knew it. I knew it. But that was like that moral connection. Like my. Okay. I always say the expectation is where hope goes to die, right? Like, that's like, a thing. But, dude, I have been catching myself, especially after this whole Neil thing. Like, I do have expectations. I do. I have these expectations of these people that I don't know personally that have done things that have been so personal to me that, like, I connect with them and, like, I'm having to completely reevaluate how I take things in. And recently, partially because we've been doing these podcasts and stuff, and I've been, like, doing these deep dives into films, like finding out that Nosferatu, like the original, was used as Nazi propaganda. And we're still using some of the imagery from that today, like, with gut wrenching Tibby. Right? So all of this stuff is like. Like, it's okay to really love something is how I feel. And it's okay to take, like, the parts of it that, like, mean something to you. But the thing is, it's just a thing. In the end, it's really, like, it's just a thing. And I'm having to, like, separate myself from some of this. And, like, dude, I'm not. It's hard. I'm sitting here with my James Purefoy mug because, like, James pure boy movies got me through some really hard times, you know, like, it's a thing. It's. But yeah, that's. [00:21:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I understand. That's real. [00:21:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:33] Speaker C: I'm not crying right now. I'm, like, totally crying. I'm sorry, guys. [00:21:36] Speaker B: No, it's. It's an emotional thing, and that's actually, like, the emotion that's coming out of you is. Is so indicative of, like, why we're having this conversation in the first place. Right. [00:21:47] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:21:48] Speaker D: Exactly. [00:21:49] Speaker B: I think about this concept, right, of fandom and what is interesting for, like, my personal experience with it is how for me, participating in the various fandoms that I have found Myself connected to over the course of my entire several decades of life is like, that's community, right? So we as humans, we're social beings and we want to be socially connected and feel a sense of camaraderie and a sense of community around like minded individuals. And so many of us find that sense of community in these fandoms that we connect with our fellows in that way, right? Like, oh my God, like, you read the same book as me, you listen to the same music as me, you get me, like, I'm not alone. And, and, and then it's like, well then, and then you realize, like, because we're conn over this same piece of art, there's something so like, if you're visually watching this, right, as somebody here on the left and somebody here on the right, and they're meeting in the middle, and that middle point, that line, that perpendicular line that's going up and down between them, where they met is this person's art. Which means somehow or another, the, the voice or the message or the theme or the energy of the art that this person is creating is able to bring people together. It's able to bring you to yourself in some cases. Like, how many of us have listened to a song or watched a scene in a movie or read a fucking page in a book and went, oh my, my God, it's me. I never knew how to say that. I've been feeling that feeling my whole life and I never knew how to verbalize it. And you just did that for me. And now I know myself better because of this. [00:23:43] Speaker D: Exactly. This is huge. [00:23:45] Speaker B: Like, this is why we consume art, right? Like, we are a podcast that is filled with, you know, hosts that are obsessed with consuming beautiful, weird media, whether that's books, movies, comics, whatever. And we're creators ourselves. And it's like, it almost gets to the heart of the question of like, literally, what the hell even is art and what's the purpose of it and who owns art? [00:24:09] Speaker D: Who? [00:24:09] Speaker B: What? You know, they say like, well, once you put it out there, it's no longer yours, right? Like, it's now public domain. It belongs to the ether. It belongs to the everything and the everyone. It's not yours anymore. Well then isn't that crazy, right? Because then it's like, okay, well then whose voice really is that? You know? And you know, for example, with like the Harry Potter fandom, Harry Potter was like a huge, huge, huge one for me. Like, I went to the midnight releases of the books. I'd be sitting in a borders at 11:30 at night, you know, and dressed fully in Harry Potter costume, waiting for be released at midnight. You know, kids these days, they could never like, they could never, they don't even know. And anyway, and so like this was huge for me, a huge part of my identity. And then everything fudgeing happened with J.K. rowling and her going off the deep end. And so there was big conversation and rift in that fandom, you know, as that was all playing out. And what I saw emerge as, I guess the majority mentality around it was, well, we're not going to support this, you know, woman or this franchise financially anymore, right? Like, but we can support like Etsy creators who are creating Harry Potter inspired memorabilia and whatever. And the, the, the we say, we'd say Hogwarts is ours now, right? Like Hogwarts is our home. It doesn't belong to her, it belongs to us. Like, this is, this is our fandom. Like literally fuck her. And then that's, you know, that, that attempt to separate the art from the artist. I don't know that it's a perfect solution. It's just, it's so hard because there's like literal, actual, experiential, visceral grief that happens inside of people's bodies when these situations occur. [00:26:00] Speaker D: Exactly. And this is where I feel like separating the art from the artist really comes into play. Because as we're talking about this, I feel as if I came to two realizations. The first realization being that it's the relationship that you have with the art, not the relationship that you have with the artist in the first place. Because everything you said ca about you listen to a song, you read a page in a book, you see a scene in a movie. That's not you experiencing the artist, that is you experiencing their art. And it's their art that they've created that creates that, that draws that reaction from you, that draws that realization from you and that sense of belonging from you. So at that point I will say I am inclined to believe that, you know, you can separate the art from the artist in that way because you find your community in the fandom, you find your meaning and your connection to what that art is. That's what art is meant to be. It's meant to be something that elicits a connection from the viewer, whether that is an actual physical art piece or media. Thing that I've realized is that I think something, I feel like something that people can take away from this is the hard reminder of you can, you can have a relationship to the Artist. Because you can know that artist, but you have to remember that. That. That to that artist, you are but a stranger. [00:27:33] Speaker C: Yes. [00:27:34] Speaker A: Yeah. I. I want to highlight Alan Moore. Okay, this is important. So you know, Neil Gaiman, of course, invited this kind of thing. Right? Here's the thing. Like, I see a. By the way, I do want to just state that your. Your. Your. Your spiel there was beautiful. That was excellent. Brittany, you. [00:27:49] Speaker D: That was beautiful. [00:27:50] Speaker A: Yeah, it was great. But I really like, in line with that. I mean, when I was a lot younger, I would find friends at day camp by asking flat out, have you read the Lord of the Rings and the Boys? Who said, yeah, yeah, I'm reading the second one. I just got to Tree Beard. Did you know it? And I. That was how I found friends when I was little, you know, I want to highlight Alan Moore because Alan Moore went out of his way to not engage with fandom. Would he speak at comic book conventions for a time? Yes. Mostly to say nasty things about other comic writers who were doing this thing that Neil Gaiman did and has inflicted upon us like a curse. You know, he would not do that. In fact, he would shit on his fans specifically because they didn't really understand his work. But, like, here's the thing. Yeah. So when you're reading the Lord of the Rings, you're not thinking about J.R.R. tolkien's Catholicism or his friendship with C.S. lewis, which probably hurt him more than it helped him, honestly. You know, why is it that with Neil Gaiman we're thinking about Gaiman? You know, it's because. [00:28:51] Speaker C: Brand. [00:28:52] Speaker A: It's brand. Yes. But here's the important thing, okay? And I think this is very important because, you know, I just reread A Game of youf and A Season of Mists because those were the two most influential books to me. A Game of youf is the first time I saw a queer person, specifically a trans person, in anything period. And it was one of the most sympathetic depictions of a trans person and remains, even though it's a little problematic. I don't need to get into it. Go read it. It's pretty good. Go fucking buy it, used and read it. You know? But my point is that, like, I'm left wondering if, like, Gaiman actually believed all that advocacy, all that stuff, you know, and at a certain point, it doesn't really matter. But here's the big thing. You know, he wrote it back in 1991. That's when it was published. That was 34 years ago. You know, my boyfriend, when we were in the car, discussing this episode, he said that people change. They don't always change for the better. Even evolution is not a straight line. There are bumps, there are curves, there are dead ends. And sometimes people are meant to just become monsters. When Marilyn Manson wrote Antichrist Superstar, his first big album, he had two albums before that. Whatever. Enough said about that. The less said about that, the better, right? My opinion. Antichrist Superstar is essentially the story of a boy, a little white trash boy growing up in a trailer park who suffers horribly at the hands of bullies. American culture, advertising, church, all that. He's referred to in the album as the worm. And he dreams of becoming a rock star. And when he does, when he becomes the great. The great Antichrist Superstar himself, his only goal is to bring the entire world that harmed him to rumination and destruction. Now, I don't think at the time, Manson really thought that's what he wanted. I think he was parodying. Parodying the corporatism of the American rock apparatus. You know, this. This culture, not just rock, but corporatism in general. This culture that, you know, makes you buy specific brands of toothpaste and makeup or else you'll never be accepted, and so on and so forth. You know, this. This. This culture of cruelty, you know? But it's funny how, you know, 30 or so years later, he has become that very creature. And the same with Guyman. I don't. He hasn't written anything, has he? [00:31:15] Speaker B: Like, in recent years. No. [00:31:17] Speaker A: Yeah, like that. The. The comic book behind me, the Dreaming number one. He didn't write that. He wasn't involved in the. He wasn't really involved in the Vertigo relaunch. He just puts his name on it because, as Adrian just pointed out, it's a brand. And what I'm trying to say is. [00:31:29] Speaker C: That, like, he did write Ocean by the Lane or. [00:31:34] Speaker A: That was not recent. That was not recent. [00:31:36] Speaker C: Oh, it feels recent. [00:31:37] Speaker B: I'm. [00:31:39] Speaker A: That was like 10. That was like, 10 years ago. [00:31:41] Speaker B: Yeah. It's crazy. Well, something that was coming to mind when we were talking about this whole concept is how way back in, like, Roman times, they would refer to the muse, right, as the source of actual creative output, and it wasn't attributed to the artist themselves. And that was done for two reasons. To protect the art and to protect the artist. Because if the thing that got created was bad, well, the muse just wasn't with me today and just didn't work out. But then if. If the art was good, it didn't get credited to the artist. It was like wow, the muse was really with you. Like, praise the muse or whatever and plausible deniability. And I find that so interesting. And I'm like, maybe we need to return to that. Maybe we think of art and creative output as a living entity in and of itself, separate from like the artist is almost just like a vector or a vessel for these ideas to come through. And so therefore, when we are enjoying a piece of art, it's. It's the art itself. The muse provided it. Right, yeah. Capital A art. You know, energy flowed through this particular artist on this particular day. Lucky them. And now we have this piece of art, but it really isn't necessarily about them. Now where this gets tricky. Where this gets tricky is an artists are using so much of their actual real life lived experience to infuse into what they're creating. And then when that becomes the thing that we connect with, because oh my God, me too. Like I also have that chronic illness or I'm also gay or I'm also whatever. And we are now identifying with a shared lived experience with this person. That's harder. Right? It becomes harder to like do that separation process because it's like, well, they made, they were able to write this beautiful prose because they are living a life that's so similar to what it feels like to be inside of my body on a day to day. And when I read these words, it's like, oh my God, I know them, they know me. It's like we're the same person. Comes harder to, you know, do that separation process at that point. [00:33:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, art is essentially at the end of the day, my mother, abusive artist herself, you know, incredible painter. Okay, Writer. He said, she taught me at a very young age that art is essentially about expression. You're sharing some something with someone else. You're creating an artifact of your feelings, your experiences and your thoughts. And I, I just think that Death of the Author is something of a cop out. It can leave you with a very anemic reading of a text and, well, frankly, rob a text of any meaning outside of what you bring to it. However, sometimes a text will speak for itself. I mean, you can read A Season of Mists and see Lucifer rebelling against something he really can't rebel against and his frustration when he does it anyway and he knows he can never get out. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know, it's. It's Tricky Dicky and like most things, it is what you make of it. [00:34:46] Speaker D: Yeah. What you said ca about praise the Muse, that was it just kind of hit me like a truck. I'm a very spiritual person, and you can leave it up to me to find spirituality in everything. And just the. That statement in itself, it's just. That was a click for me. Like, that's how it works. So have you. Have you guys, this is a tangent. I promise I'll get to the point. Have you guys heard of the Butterfly effect? Of how 911 caused Twilight to exist? [00:35:15] Speaker A: You better tell us. [00:35:16] Speaker D: I might not get it completely correct, but 911 occurred. The tragedy of it inspired Gerard Way to write songs for My Chemical Romance. My Chemical Romance inspired Stephenie Meyer, and Stephenie Meyer created Twilight from that. [00:35:32] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. It's a whole tunnel. [00:35:35] Speaker D: It's a whole thing. You can look it up. And there's probably a lot more steps that I have missed in that Butterfly effect, but that particular instance, I feel like is a really good example of. Oh, Praise the Muse. Definitely not Praise the muse for 9 11. Please don't take that out of context. [00:35:52] Speaker A: You said. You said something worse. [00:35:53] Speaker D: You said, praise the Muse for Twilight. [00:35:56] Speaker C: Thank you, Daniel. I wasn't gonna say that. But you. [00:36:00] Speaker A: I will. [00:36:01] Speaker D: I am a Twilight apologizer. [00:36:03] Speaker C: Okay. [00:36:04] Speaker A: I have a signed copy of Breaking Dawn. I do. [00:36:07] Speaker D: That is awesome. [00:36:09] Speaker A: I met her. I was gonna be really mean, but then she was, like, really sweet, and I just couldn't. I didn't have it in me to be an. [00:36:14] Speaker D: You know, I am a Twilight apologizer. I feel like it's one of those things. It's like junk food. [00:36:19] Speaker C: You like honey? [00:36:19] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Yeah. Absolutely. Empty calories. [00:36:22] Speaker C: Twilight all the time. [00:36:24] Speaker B: Like a giant bag of Skittles. Yeah. [00:36:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:36:26] Speaker A: Oh. [00:36:27] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. But it's essentially that. It's that it's, again, praise be the Muse, that allows for people, us as humans, to become so creatively inspired by our experiences to create these things that other people can connect to. And on that level, it becomes a very spiritual level. There's a lot of people that we could probably talk to that have spiritual connections to the artists that they are inspired by. They. They. They listen to this music, they read these books, they watch these shows, these movies. I will even say I can speak from my own experience. I have a very, in my personal opinion, spiritual connection to Supernatural. It's my favorite TV show. I have the anti possession symbol tattooed right here on my leg. I. I feel very connected to it because I feel so connected to the plight of the characters and the things that they go through and the emotional aspect of how they develop as themselves. And it was through that show that I was able to learn a lot about myself and the way that I believed and how I fight and how I stand up for the things that I believe in. And again, coming back to Praise Be the Muse, it's almost as if the muse is what is supposed to teach us and not teach us, help us learn about ourselves through the beautiful art, essentially. And it's almost as if I am coming to the belief that the artist is merely the vessel for the message that we are supposed to receive. [00:38:04] Speaker C: So. [00:38:05] Speaker B: So yes and yes. And. And I think that's why this conversation is hard, right? Is. And that's what, you know, we were just. Daniel's just thing as well, which is just like the attempt to pull off death of the author is part. It's futile because we can't, like we, we can try our best, right? We can try our best to do this and say praise them, he was not the artist, whatever. But also like we are to these human beings, we just are. And like we can't pretend that it wasn't that pen that wrote that piece. [00:38:43] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:38:44] Speaker B: You know what I mean? And in a lot of cases, as I was saying, in a lot of cases, as I was saying before, like it is actually very specifically the person's lived experiences that in. That are infused into this thing that we're connecting with. And so, and that can be. In some cases it's not, you know, some cases it's. It's not really about their personal lives at all. But in other times it is. And I think in either scenario, whatever is going on, what I'm realizing now through this conversation is that it. I don't think we can avoid fandom or hero worship especially because art is so primally and viscerally and emotionally and psychologically affect. Like it affects us so deeply on all of those levels that we are going to be affected by these people, right? And we are going to want to pedestal them to some degree and we are going to want to praise them and thank them and have them sign the fucking book, right? Because if it's. Why do we have signed copies by our favorite authors, right? Because they wrote this and it means something to us. And having their ink on our fucking title page like means something to us. [00:39:58] Speaker D: You know, merely the vessel, but blessed be the vessel. [00:40:01] Speaker A: So. So. Okay, okay, I do want to jump in here. There's a book I read. It's by. I'm doing it, but I can't help it. A brilliant writer named Grant Morrison, he's a comic book writer. And I, I have a lot of respect for him. He's like, he's like Alan Moore. Alan. He's another of Alan Moore sworn enemies. But he's written some really, really, really, really, really good books. I don't want to get into them here. That's another episode. But he wrote a book called Super Gods. Super Gods, where it's effectively he's a chaos magician. And what that is, is it's where you make your own system of sympathetic magic and it affects your life through the power of suggestion perhaps, I don't know, it's very complicated. But it works for him in his comic book writing. And the way he writes Super Gods is in a very spiritual way. When he talks about Superman and he talks about like Wonder Woman and stuff, to him they're all just ageless gods that he is allowed to play with for a while. And to a certain degree that is true. Yes. Corporations are where these characters live. They are just puppets owned by Time Warner and Disney, Marvel and dc. Right. But you know, in his opinion, the Flash is quite literally Mercury. He's back. He's back. He's even got the little wings on the sides of his head. Even Thor's here, you know, Shazam is an old timey magician. Who's he? It doesn't matter. He's Shazam now, you know, and I, the way Neil Gaiman and Mike Carey, who wrote the Lucifer comic book, the spin off comic book of the Sandman, Lucifer, It's a really good comic book. I recommend people read it. Even though it's connected to the Sandman. Mike Carey says that when he took the assignment, when he begged for the assignment, when he got the assignment, when he got to write this book, Gaiman said to him, be careful. That character is going to get away from you. You know, and you know, as a fantasy writer myself, I sometimes talk about how my main character, Splinter, he often gets away from me and does things I don't want him to do. And I can't help it because I, I tell people, don't be mad at me, I just wrote this, you know, I was writing a book about his, Splinter's little sister and he showed up in it. I couldn't do anything about it. I mean, you could say that's a cop out for my shitty writing. But I, I really do feel like at a certain point, like this stuff kind of gets away from you. Like Stephen King, he said that he doesn't even remember writing Carrie. He doesn't remember writing the Stand. He doesn't remember Writing it. And I mean, there's some weird stuff in it, so maybe that's a cop out, but I think there is something to like, I. I am a skeptic when it comes to spiritualism, but I am partial to it because I have experienced this very thing. And I think that a lot of writers will play to it. But that brings me to my next point about Gaiman. I read a quote from him. This was in this article that we all read about, you know, Mrs. Pavlovich and Carolyn Walker. He said to Amanda Palmer that he didn't really believe in love, that it's just something that writers write about. And she's like, but you write about it. He's like, yeah, writers make up a lot of stuff, right? And I'm kind of like, huh. Here's the thing about Gaiman. I have never seen anyone say this, but he's the first writer I read who wrote like, a Jew. I'm a Jew, you know, the Jesus and all that stuff. I don't even really understand it. Like, I'm reading the New Testament because I'm training to be a help agent for recovering from religion. And, like, it's some of the weirdest, most pathetic stuff I've read in a very long time. I can't believe people like this. You know, Gaiman is like, he writes about angels, he writes about demons, he writes about hell, he writes about all this stuff. No, Jesus never makes an appearance. The Lucifer comic is similarly constructed. Not written by a Jew, but it's from the same. The same fountain, if you will. When you. When you meet Yahweh, he's not even in the Silver City where the angels live. He has like a. An incarnation. And it's because in the Jewish mystical tradition, Yahweh is. Is. Is. Is too great to understand. He's not just a person, you know, he's distant. He's. He's all powerful. He operates on a level you can't conceive of. And like, when a lot of Christian writers write their, you know, their terrible romance novels or their God's not dead or left behind or any of that, you know, the. Jesus will show up and he'll hug you and be real personable and stuff, he'll act like a character in the Thor comics. You know what I mean? Just another guy. And like, I don't know. Neil Gaiman was a Scientologist. His parents were Scientologists. Gaiman worked as a. Is it as an auditor. That's where you go into the Church of Scientology. And you tell them, I'm having all these problems, I'm depressed. You know, I'm. I'm having suicidal ideation. And they say, oh, sounds like you've got some thetans. Let's do some auditing. And they take out their little device, they hook it up to you, and they. They audit your thetans and charge you a few thousand dollars. That was Gaiman's job. And what I'm getting at is, like, you know, I just, like. I feel like I got played. Like. Like, here's this guy who writes like me, thinks like me, but doesn't really believe any of. Any of the things I believe, perhaps, you know, and it's like, I could read A Season of Mists and cry at Lucifer's plight. I can read a game of you and feel bad for poor Wanda, you know, his. His hapless trans character who he kills in the course of the story and then shows it's okay because in death she got. She got nice curvy hips and big breasts. She became a real woman in death, you see. You know, and it's like, huh, yeah, it's. It's problematic, and it casts a nasty light on everything. And, like, with Gaiman, it's really hard to separate him from his art because he presented himself as this person. It's the same problem I'm having with Marilyn Manson. The only thing I can relate to with him now is. Is his vitriol and bile towards society. But right now, all his bile is towards society because it's rejecting him for being a rapist. So, you know. Yeah, there's no. Is there? I don't. There's no ethical consumption of Manson with Gaiman. I don't know. I don't know if the golf is that great, but it's there. [00:46:02] Speaker C: I feel like he, especially with a job like that, knew exactly how to play a part. Right. Like, he's very good at, like, hearing people's stories, you know, like, all of this kind of stuff anyway, because he was literally trained to, you know, listen to people's sins, essentially. Right? Like, he collected them. [00:46:26] Speaker A: That's what that is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:46:28] Speaker C: So he's like a sin eater, basically. But, I mean, you and I have talked multiple times about how I. Like, when this very first happened, I always felt like, you know, he always presented himself as, like, one of the heroes in his books, when, in fact, like, he's actually one of the monsters he created. Like, he is the. Like, he's just as much of a part and it's so Easy to see the good parts of him in, you know, like, Morpheus or like even in Neverwhere, like, like so many of these characters that he's written. Like there's, there's, you know, like these complicated, very human things. But I think that's because he didn't really know how to be human. He was just really good at interpreting humans. Does that make sense? [00:47:18] Speaker A: Morpheus himself is pretty monstrous. [00:47:21] Speaker C: He's terrible. [00:47:22] Speaker A: Like, he, he, he, he, he sends nuada to hell for 10, 000 years for rejecting him. [00:47:27] Speaker C: I know he does, you know, so many bad things. And basically his entire demise comes because like, he can't really change. You know what I mean? [00:47:37] Speaker B: You know how they always say, like, never meet your heroes and, and then the other phrase, right, of like, you know, a hero either dies a hero or lives long enough to be discovered. [00:47:51] Speaker D: That they're a piece of. [00:47:52] Speaker B: I don't, I'm paraphrasing and making it my own but essential sentiment, right? Like, if somebody is like a hero, it's because they died early on enough in whatever it is that they, you know, managed to scrape away with hero status before some terrible whatever came out about them. I'm not. [00:48:10] Speaker A: Quickly kill me. [00:48:12] Speaker B: I try not to be that cynical. I'm not that far gone on this spectrum of cynicism. But I do think that I am, like, approaching hero worship much more cautiously. You know, the older I get, the more incidents like this that happen. But that being said, like I said, I do think fandom and hero worship is like an innate, like, human experience that we almost can, we can't avoid. So therefore, if that's the case, how do we prepare for watching our heroes fall? And maybe this conversation is ultimately really about learning how to grieve an ideal, learning how to grieve the fall of a hero, learning how to, how to move through like an actual grief process and calling it what it is because it is. [00:49:03] Speaker D: It is exactly. [00:49:04] Speaker C: You are grieving what his works meant to you. You are grieving who you thought he was. You're grieving how you related to him. You're grieving all of these things because they're so personal. Even though you don't actually know the real person. [00:49:18] Speaker B: You know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of, like, when somebody finds out that their spouse has been cheating on them for the last three years, and then all of a sudden you replay your entire last three years and like, every memory, you're like, thinking of those family vacations and that gift that they got you and that poem that they wrote you, and you're like, you know, and you feel so betrayed, right? That scene from Mrs. Delphine. [00:49:47] Speaker A: The whole time, the whole time, you. [00:49:49] Speaker B: Know, and you're just like. And you go back through and it's like you replay the entire experience that you have with this thing and you're going, oh my God, now I have to recontent textualize this entire thing in your brain. Like what it means to me. [00:50:04] Speaker D: Exactly. [00:50:05] Speaker A: I. I just want to see Neil Gaiman pull this master crap with Raya Ripley so she can knock him on his ass. Yeah, who's your mommy now? You know? [00:50:13] Speaker B: Please. [00:50:15] Speaker C: So I feel like one of the root table that's happened because this was. Because I do have those connections and those hero worship things about me, you know, where it's like, oh my gosh, they. They did this thing that means so much. It's like the circle of art. Because art inspires art. [00:50:36] Speaker D: Exactly. [00:50:37] Speaker C: Favorite things about art. But I think one of the things is like knowing, like having like the personal knowledge that you do have these connections and that this is a thing and could happen. Like, it does make you see it differently. So you can be like, okay, I do feel like this. But like Daniel has told me multiple times over the last couple weeks because, like, it's been a thing. It's like you don't actually know this person. You know, this work and you know what it means to you and you know what it means to other people that you associate with that you've made friends with because of this work. You know what I mean? [00:51:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I. I went through this with Mr. Poe also because I went out of my way not to engage with his life because he was such an inspiration to me when I was a teenager. He was instrumental in getting through, you know, my. The abuse that my mother levied at me. Like, you know, I just was like, I don't want to know. Like I. I heard like a whiff of something. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't tell me. I don't wanna. I don't want to hear about Virginia. I don't want to hear about his fights. So when we sat down to do our first episode about Mr. Poe and his romance with Sarah Helen Whitman, which you should totally check out. [00:51:55] Speaker C: Nice plug. [00:51:56] Speaker A: You know? But anyway, it was really hard for me to read that stuff and. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, at a certain point it's like, you know, is this just your Tuesday? Like, you know what I mean? And you kind of have to Take it for what it is. Again, I. I can't say enough that, like, my end result is always going to be that your mileage is going to vary depending on who it is, what it is, and what you could do with it. But at the end of the day, you are engaging with the work and not the person. [00:52:24] Speaker C: Right. [00:52:25] Speaker A: That person might be dead and you have to make a decision. Like with Orson Scott Card, I decided I was going to read Ender's Game. I bought it used. I was not giving that bigot my money because that money would go straight to, you know, the family foundation or wherever the. Whatever hate group he donates his money to, you know, And I'm glad I did because, hey, Ender's Game, hell of a novel. Has nothing to do with his homophobia. Great novel. Incredible. One of the best sci fi novels I've ever read. I can't say the same for Xenocide. Like, it think it's pretty good. Speaker for the dead. Excellent. But, you know, I think that it should come with that trigger warning of, like, you should read this book. It's really good. The writer's an asshole though. So, you know, I think exactly, like. [00:53:04] Speaker C: Accepting the fact that, like, some of these things are not what we think they are. Some of these people are not who we think they are. [00:53:11] Speaker A: Right. [00:53:12] Speaker C: Like, be prepared, I guess, for that. Like, except the fact that, like, you know what? People are people and some people are bad people, whether we like them or not or whether they write beautifully or create amazing art. Neil Gaiman, like, the Dream Hunters Book of Sandman is how I started painting. I found that book and Amano had done the paintings in it. And it was so morbidly romantic and haunting and it's like this fairy tale and the paintings were so pretty. I found it in high school and it literally, like, it made me take a watercolor class. And I mean, now look at what I do. Does that have value? Absolutely. Like it. [00:53:52] Speaker A: So I don't. [00:53:53] Speaker C: He does. [00:53:53] Speaker A: Yeah. No, absolutely. And I don't have the full painting downstairs yet, but, like, you know, Adrian gave me the full painting. She painted the COVID for my first book. I re released it with her cover. I mean, it's incredible. And like, to. In a certain way, it wouldn't be there without that. That book, that Mr. [00:54:09] Speaker C: Guy, you know, I have it right here actually. [00:54:11] Speaker A: Like, you want to hold it up? [00:54:13] Speaker C: Yeah, I do. But let me find like one of the really pretty ones because there's like so many pretty ones. But like, this is like, like, look. [00:54:19] Speaker A: It'S the only one I didn't read. I didn't read that book because I didn't like it. [00:54:22] Speaker C: My favorite one. Besides, like, anything with Jeff, basically. [00:54:26] Speaker A: It's probably really fucking good. [00:54:28] Speaker C: It is really fucking good. It is fucking good. And my mom bought it for me on this, like, really emotional day, and we didn't have the money for it, but she somehow knew because, like, I was obsessed with his work anyway. And I had been, like, going through his novels like crazy, and, like, we were at a Hastings, which doesn't exist anymore, which is really tragical. And there it was. It was my senior year of high school, and, like, I saw it, and it was the most beautiful thing. Like, I was immediately drawn to it. It was the most beautiful thing, and the story was so beautiful and sad, and it just. Oh, my God, it was amazing. And the next year, I started college and started painting, you know, Like, I wouldn't. [00:55:10] Speaker B: I'm having this, like, weird analogy run through my brain right now, though. About, like. It started in my brain as this question of, like, can the art still be good, beautiful and true, even if the person who created it is a piece of shit? And immediately my brain wanted to be like, yeah, sure, of course. Like, the answer is, yeah, right, okay. And then it started, like, crafting this analogy in my brain of, like, all right, so you're at a restaurant, and somebody serves you a beautiful plate of food, and you eat the whole thing, delicious. And then later on, you find out that the chef who made it, their hands were filthy, and there were cockroaches running all around the kitchen the entire time that meal was being made. [00:55:52] Speaker C: But you might. [00:55:53] Speaker B: You're like, do I puke now? Do I vomit all of that food out of my stomach? But, like, it tasted so good, I don't understand. And would I eat it again? Like, yeah, probably, but I wouldn't want to pay for it again. Like, it's so. You know what I mean? It's like your brain like, that. It's like you glitch. Like, you don't know how to, like, exactly. [00:56:12] Speaker C: Well, then maybe it inspires you to create your own food. Right, Exactly. A whole other. [00:56:18] Speaker A: But. But. But is that. But is that what happens? [00:56:20] Speaker B: I mean, like, I don't know. I don't know. [00:56:22] Speaker A: I don't know. Yeah. Like, I think that that is, like, a decent analogy. Right? I think it's a good analogy, actually. However, like, HP Lovecraft, the call. The call of. I'm sorry, this is the obvious scope. [00:56:34] Speaker C: It is. [00:56:34] Speaker A: It really is the shadow over in mouth, right? It's a story about inbreeding. It's a story about racism. It's a story. There's even like almost a, you know, a guy evading lynching, ironically, you know, and he's about to be lynched by fish people. But, like, you know, it's a story about people with, like, a weird religion. They all. They. They really come from the sea, you know what I mean? They look weird. And, you know, it's about how multiculturalism is a bad thing. It's demonic. The horror at Red Hook, same thing. He runs into a Jew who takes him to his creepy. He doesn't call him a Jew, but he's a swarthy individual, takes him to his place of worship and shows him the true darkness he worships. And, like, that is like, I'm only going to tell you to read Lovecraft because of how beautifully he writes and the fact that, like, what he's doing is creating something cosmic and unknowable and upsetting you with it and that the racism is there. You're going to have to deal with it if you want to read it. You know, a trigger warning is right there. That is a guy with shitty hands making a souffle for you and being like. You know what I mean? Like. Like you're gonna find some cockroaches in your food if you go to H.P. lovecraft's Chinese place. You know what I mean? It's just the fact, you know what I mean? With Gaiman, again, like, his books are not as horrific as, like, Hellblazer, which, honestly, I mean, the worst part, I don't think any rapists wrote Constantine's book Hellblazer. I highly recommend that book, by the way. It's incredible. Some of the books are better than some of the Sandman stuff. But, like, you know, I think that Gaiman does express some of his nastiness through the character of Morpheus. Specifically, you know, I think there's a lot there. The one story everyone's talking about, and it's funny that you guys brought up the muse because, you know, there's There. There's a story that's making the rounds right now about Calliope, where there's this old writer who is retiring and he. He has this protege. He tells him, hey, man, I'm done writing. [00:58:24] Speaker B: I've seen this. Yep, I do. [00:58:26] Speaker A: He gives him his secret. It's the muse, Calliope. He's like, you don't have to feed her or anything. He's like, what do you have to do. He's like, you know, what you have to do. And the idea is, after he rapes her, he then suddenly is filled with knowledge, and he writes these books, and he has a career, and he won't. He can't let her go. He loves it too much. And, you know, obviously Morpheus shows up, and Calliope is his old lover, so he's gonna do her a solid, you know, and he fills his. His. His mind with unending dreams, waking dreams. He can't stop. He can't even write them down. They're coming so fast. And, you know, but, like, the thing is, like, the older writer, he has this bit where he's like. They're like, how do you write so well? He's like, you know, and your female characters are so great. He's like, oh. You know, I always consider myself a feminist, you know, and it's like, you know, something that came up with me and Brittany were chatting last week is like, you know, my little sister asked me, like, danny, um. Oh, y'all see, told me a feminist. And I don't know how I should feel about that. And I'm like, what do you. What do you want to feel? She's like, I don't know what that is. I'm like, well, I don't know. I mean, do you think women should be paid the same amount? You know, do you think that women should have the right to choose if they're. If they get pregnant or not? I mean, you're a feminist. I mean, I don't know. It's like asking if you're a heliocentrist or something. Something. You know, like, ask me if you like drinking. Like, I don't. You know what I mean? And it's like, it's. It's when people, like. I've never felt the need to say I'm a feminist. It's like, it's enough for me to just say, like, I'm pretty far left. Like, you don't want to be friends with me. You know what I mean? You don't want to follow me on Facebook. You're gonna see some spicy stuff, you know? [00:59:59] Speaker C: Well, it's like I always say, most people, like, if someone has to say they're a nice guy or if they have to, like, make a statement that there's this or they're that red flag. They're not. That is not who they are. That is them telling you they're actually not that person. And this has been another life lesson for me. And I know so many People relate to that. Ca. Your face. [01:00:23] Speaker B: Brittany, what's your takeaways? Where are you? We've thrown a lot at. I want to. I want to hear your voice. [01:00:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:30] Speaker D: My takeaway is separating the art from the artist is truly nuanced. It truly. Summing it up into one phrase, it is truly nuanced. And there's so many. At the end of the day. [01:00:49] Speaker B: It'S. [01:00:49] Speaker D: The relationship that you create with the art, it's the relationship that you have as a fan with the art, it's the relationship you have with the other fans, and it's the relationship that you have with your community around you. And to a degree, yes, you will create that parasocial relationship with the artist. But I think the most important thing that, again, I feel people need to take away is remember that you are a stranger to that and you can relate to them all day, every day. You can relate to anybody all day, every day. People can relate to any one of us here, and that's great that you can find that community. But the true community that you're going to find is the other people, the fans that you relate with, because you're going to look at each other and say you experience the same thing the artist experienced. Okay, now we have a relationship that we can build off together. We can create a friendship. We can create something more substantial than the relationship that you're going to have with somebody who doesn't know that you exist. [01:01:50] Speaker B: Yes, that's so true. [01:01:52] Speaker D: And once that art, it was something that was said earlier, is that, you know, when art goes out into the world, then it's not yours anymore. Then it goes out into the ether. And part of me says yes to that. Part of me says no. The part of me that says yes is that again, it comes down to that creation of a relationship between the fans. Like, the fans create something. I don't know if you guys have ever read any of the really good, like, Harry Potter fan fiction. Like, specifically, I'm thinking of the Germany fan fiction. Like, one's been going viral on TikTok called Mana Clad, I think. And it's incredible, incredible work. Absolutely incredible fan fiction that's being written by these people and just uploaded to a. And art inspires art. And it's that creation of that relationship, and that's the part of me that says, yes, it's not yours anymore. It's ours now. And it's something that we can create and we can create friendships and relationships out of. The other part of me says no, because you still have to recognize where the art came from, and again, merely the vessel, but blessed be the vessel that creates it. So it's. And when I say, blessed be the vessel, it's not in the sense of, oh, I should worship you. You're the one that created this. But it's kind of a gratitude of saying, okay, you're really, like, gaming, for example. You're a shitty person. But I'm grateful that you were able to give me the experience that I needed to learn the things about myself I needed to learn and create the relationships that I created. So you. I'm grateful that you did that. One thing, though, I love you. [01:03:31] Speaker B: I love you guys. Thanks for the art. Bye. [01:03:34] Speaker A: On that. On that. On that note, let's take a toast to divorcing ourselves from Neil Gaiman. [01:03:39] Speaker B: Hey, this is. [01:03:40] Speaker A: Our podcast is called Demon Toast. It's time we did something with that title. Thanks for the opportunity. So long it takes for all the art. [01:03:51] Speaker C: That's so long. And thanks. [01:03:52] Speaker D: Drink your water. [01:03:53] Speaker B: Drink your water. It's important. [01:03:56] Speaker D: Anybody listening to this, hydrate right now. [01:03:58] Speaker C: As a visual artist, I have this thing where people constantly ask me to, like, tell me what this piece means. Like, what is this? What does your art mean? I refuse to do it. Like, when I was younger, like, I guess I played the art game. But, like, no, because what a piece means to me when I'm creating it is one thing, but once I'm done with it and I'm hanging it and people are viewing it, like, and if. Whether I post it on social media or it's in a show or it's on the fucking moon, like, the people viewing it have their own stories that they connect with it. And that's part of what I actually love about what I do. Because I don't have to use words for one thing, because I'm terrible with them, obviously. Like, I have my own story that is the piece. And then every person that looks at this piece, whether they love it or hate it, it means something completely different to them and it becomes personal to them, and, like, that's how they're relating to it. So, no, I'm not going to tell people what my art means. I refuse to do it. When I have to write artist statements, I write just this little blurb of, like, weird things. Like, I really get inspired by dreams and, like, stuff like that. But, like, that's it. It's like, literally two sentences. And when people ask me to explain it, it's like, well, what do you see? And then when they tell me Their story. I'll just smile at them and I'll be like, okay. And that's like literally it. And it's like super personal. And then, like, it creates this whole amazing thing. But, like, I never tell people what any of my pieces mean. [01:05:38] Speaker D: I think that's a really beautiful thing. I think that's a really beautiful thing. [01:05:43] Speaker C: That's part of the fun for me. But also I'm a freaking weirdo, so. But, yeah, but like. But art, like, like visual arts a little bit different than written art because, like, it's not. I mean, it's very, I don't know, interpretive. Like people can interpret it. There's no, like, this is this character. This is this character. There's no, like, definition to it necessarily. I mean, of course I obviously have characters in my paintings because I like paint people and stuff like that. But like, their story is like. It's ambiguous, is the word. [01:06:24] Speaker B: Yeah, sometimes. But sometimes, Sometimes it's very specific. And then it gets super controversial because of that, because people are, you know, depicting, for example, this piece of art that came out years ago, I remember, of Mary giving birth to Jesus that this artist created. And she. It was gorgeous. Oh my God. It was just. It was just a woman in a cave and she was viscerally in labor and pushing out a baby and looked like a real human. There was blood and guts and sweat and grit in the whole thing. Right. And people were like, not. [01:07:03] Speaker D: Like, they. [01:07:04] Speaker B: Literally were like, she giving birth. Like, they literally were like against that. This woman was being depicted the way that women look when they're having a baby. But instead she was supposed to look all ethereal and like, he's coming out of my vagina. [01:07:23] Speaker A: Like, it's like, yeah, it's. It's like. It's like in the Pokemon games when your Pokemons lay an egg at the daycare. They're like, we don't know how this egg got here, but your Pokemon had it. You want it. Yeah, it's like. It's like, what, did the Jesus just like magically appear in her hands? [01:07:38] Speaker B: That's what they say. And you know, it's really funny as somebody, as somebody that studied Catholic theology at the post graduate level, the actual answer to this, at least in the Catholic church, I don't know what other churches say, but the actual, like Catholic theology theological stance on this exact topic, they say that the birth of Jesus went as follows. Jesus came into the world like light passing through glass. [01:08:05] Speaker A: Stop. Stop it. [01:08:07] Speaker B: I'm so serious. That is the official Catholic Church Teaching. That's why Mary is a perpetual virgin, because her precious hymen never even got broken giving birth. [01:08:18] Speaker A: Jesus, bro, bro, that's. I don't. I don't even know what that means. [01:08:23] Speaker B: That is the Catholic stances that she is mother Mary ever virgin. She is still virginal even post birth because her vagina never stretched. Nothing ever happened to her down there. Jesus came into the world like light passing through glass. [01:08:39] Speaker A: So why did the Yahweh need to. Need to. Need to use a woman if that's the. Like, why didn't he just. Just send him down like, because he had to be. [01:08:46] Speaker B: Because he had to be made of flesh to be able to. To be able to. To be able to pay the flesh. Blood sacrifice of human sin. No, stop. Don't try to understand it. Please don't. It doesn't make sense because I'm like, literally, like. Doesn't make sense when you start breaking it down. [01:09:04] Speaker A: So. Christianity made a lot more sense to me when I knew less about it because I thought the more I thought. [01:09:16] Speaker B: They go, the more they actually study this, the more atheists. [01:09:21] Speaker A: Anyways, just to sum up. Yeah, I think that it's rough and, you know, at the end of the day, we're all gonna have to find our own way. But, you know, be aware of your parents. Parasocial relationships. Yes, they are. So, yeah, you know, that. That person you're obsessing over, that person you're taking inspiration from, who look who's like you, but bolder, braver, and more powerful. Probably not. You're just not you. You just haven't written your masterpiece yet. It's coming, you know, so, yeah, just. Just be aware that your heroes might not be who you think they are. And honestly, your best bet might very well be to just get into that fandom and make real lasting friendships. Because at the end of the day, people will almost always let you down. You know, when it comes to the art, take what you can get because you're interacting with the art, not the artist. There will be. Will be exceptions. You know, Stephen King hasn't let us down. I've heard Ron Perlman's absolutely lovely. Gil Amro Del Toro hasn't let us down. But again, don't bank on it. They're not your friends. Celebrities are not your friends. Yeah. So if you've made it this far, be sure to like and subscribe. By all means do. Check us out on Instagram, you know, death wish poetry, you know, you know, I want to shout out our social media sorceress Ashley from Tux and Media. They do all our social media work. They all those cool graphics you see, they make them. So do check them out. Tuxen Media T U X N Media. I am King Loki. I, you know, I write fantasy books. I publish them under my, my legal name, Daniel Sokolov demianlandbooks.com check them out or don't, but please check out the fantastic rating that we Highlight over at deathwishpoetry.com CA has an incredible podcast. It's called Unlearned CA. Do you want to talk about it? [01:11:22] Speaker B: Unlearned is relaunching. By the time you're listening to this, our new episode will be out. So please, please go check that out because we are relaunching it after like a six month hiatus and would love to have more ears on that as we relaunch. Yeah, you can find that at the Unlearned podcast on Instagram and then the podcast itself is just called Unlearned. And you can find that on every streaming site where you listen to podcasts. [01:11:48] Speaker A: Yeah, it's great. It's a great podcast. It's, it's really about, you know, self actualizing and unlearning some of the shit that gets thrown at you on a daily basis so that you can self actualize better and be a better you. Brittany is of course a fortune teller, psychic medium and medium. Brittany, you want to talk about what you do and where people can. [01:12:11] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. [01:12:12] Speaker D: I am a Tarot reader and I'm a psychic medium. So you can find me at Cunningfolk Tarot on Instagram. I do readings at the Crystal Sunflower in Norfolk. So if you want to come and do an in person reading, I am there. And you can find some of my work on the Crystal Sunflowers Instagram page at the Crystal Sunflower. And I'm also a paranormal investigator, so you can find me and my work at WTCW Paranormal on Instagram as well. [01:12:37] Speaker A: So yeah, fantastic. So, yeah, all links, as always, will be below. All right. What'd you say? [01:12:48] Speaker C: I said cheers. [01:12:50] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, cheers. [01:12:52] Speaker A: Obviously it's honest. Sa Sa, Sa Sa.