Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: And I don't want you and I.
[00:00:01] Speaker B: Don'T need you and I don't need you yeah, I was a really, really big Manson fan when I was in high school. And his. There was a book that I had read in high school and, God, I can't remember what the name of it was, but it was a book that I really connected with. I think it was something about. It was called Freak Something. And it was a. It was a YA novel about this really, really goth kid who was misunderstood and who was really into Marilyn Manson. And then it was a girl who was a cheerleader. And it was like their dynamic together and the relationship that they built. But I had really connected with that main character who was really into Manson and really being misunderstood because I grew up in a small town. I graduated in the class of, like, 80 something people, and I was the weird goth kid. And I had found a lot of solace through Manson's music because he really talked about the.
How do I put this?
He really talked about the woes that are found in everybody. Like, when you're. When you're in that position of being that weird kid, you are, of course, often ostracized and made to feel alone and made to feel individual. Like, you're weird for the things that you are. And Manson put a lot of highlight on normal people and the normies and, like, everybody's weird, even if you don't want to think that you are. And so I had found a lot of solace in that. And then when everything came out against him, it was almost like, God, this person that I felt so connected to just broke my heart entirely. Like, you were the person that made me realize that, no, I'm not just the weird one. Everybody's weird. But now you're worse.
[00:01:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, it's really hard because he sets himself up as, like, the king of the outcasts, you know, like, he wrote.
[00:01:51] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:01:51] Speaker A: That was like my album. I mean, like, you know, this was never my world. You took the angel away I would kill myself if only you would make you all pay and it's just like. Like I felt that way so, so many times in my life. And it's like he did that. He inflicted that harm on, like, at least, like, three or four women. You know, everywhere is like. That's another thing. I mean, it's.
[00:02:14] Speaker C: It's the same thing with Guyman, though. Like, he literally, like, dude, he's the reason I paint. I remember going into the fucking bookstore and we were broke. My sister had just moved out My mom was having, like, this entire, like, crisis. And we go into Hastings, which doesn't exist anymore, and there is Sandman, but it's. And I had read lots of it, but it was the one that was. All the paintings were done by Yoshitaka Amano. And it's this Japanese, like, love story kind of with these demons. And it's beautiful. And it's revenge. And the paintings and the story, it made me cry. And I was like, I wanna. Like, this is everything I've ever loved in my entire life.
Also, the first time I ever read Death. Like, I still say peachy keen because Death is peachy keen. She was kind and she's funny. She's this goth chick and she's like. Like, she's hardcore. But she's also, like, nice. Because I got kind of made fun of as a kid growing up. Like, I didn't fit in with the goth kids either because I was, like, fucking nice. Like, I was just nice to everybody. Like, I was just nice. And I don't want to be mean to anybody. And so they're just like, whatever, Adrian. Like, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, no. But then Death was like, me. Like, she's, like, peachy keen. She's Mary Poppins. It's literally. I always said I was gonna do a painting of death as Mary Poppins. Yeah, that will never happen.
[00:03:56] Speaker A: Yeah, Morpheus and Death, they look like. They look like, you know, like 90s Goth. Goth people. And, you know, Death has this. This. This kindness, this gentleness to her. Morpheus has a bit of. He has a bit of a speech at one point where he's like, I don't know why the mortals love me so much. I'm terrible. I. You know, I plunge them into nightmares every night. You know, when they have nice dreams. It's not my doing, it's their doing. But you. You're kind, you know, you give them what they. What they desire most, reprieve from the torment of life, you know, and it always struck me as a little odd, but, like, you know, maybe it's. It was an exploration of the fact that, you know, Gaiman thinks the human. Human mind is.
Is inherently troubled. Therefore, he himself, as a representation of the subconscious, is a monster. Whereas death is external and kind of natural. But you meet Neil Gaiman and he's. He's this horrible person. Like, you know, he signed. He signed my copy of American Gods. He wrote Dan. Right? You know, and I mean, hey, that's what I would write to a young kid because, you know, that's the problem with Neil Gaiman. He was the first writer I came across where I was actually jealous of the things he'd written. I wasn't. I wasn't like, ooh, this is cool. I want to write like this. It was, you fucker. You got to it. You did this. I wanted to do that also. It was. It felt like something I would write when I was more experienced and clever and well versed in things, you know, like, not just. Not just his comic book, the. The Sandman, which is. I mean, it's genre defining. Like, you know, something like American Gods, which. It has plot holes you could drive a truck through. I mean, you know, it's. It's a deeply flawed novel, but it's also incredible. It's beautiful. Beautifully written. It's incredible. I've been so sad about the election and the way the world just feels broken by people. Not. Not even just like. Like, we lost a culture war, but apathy. That's like, Trump didn't gain votes or anything. People on the left just didn't vote. And that's why we have to go through this again. And, like, it's. It's already really bad. We're like, three days in and he's already did, like, irreparable harm. And, like, I was listening to Manson's new album, like, because. Because nothing else speaks to me right now. And it's like he has a line where he's like, you know, imagine who would want to wake up and this is their world. I want power to crumble. I want destruction. You know what I mean? And it's like, yeah, like, it's just that frustration, that absolute fury. And, like, I'm at a point where I'm like, yeah, I mean, like, it's almost a death of the author situation. And I don't like death of the author. I think it's a really shitty way to look at media. It's reductive. But at the same time, at a certain point, like, you know, like, I was talking to Adrian while I was setting up here, and I was like.
I was like, oh, boy, this is a good comic book. You know, I mean, the comic book didn't rape anyone. I mean, fuck, dude. You know? And it's like, at what point is it okay to consume something that a problematic person made after they're dead? I don't know. There was no answer. Not really.
[00:06:45] Speaker B: There is no answer. And I feel like it really goes back to that conversation we had the last time with Aleister Crowley. Is that, you Know, it's that nuance of when you say, separate the art from the artist. How far are you going with that? And what do you mean by that? And.
[00:07:01] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. What does it even mean?
[00:07:03] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. And I am of the personal belief that you can enjoy the product of somebody's work without having to align yourself to that person.
It's kind of the idea of, like, you know, you want to read Harry Potter so you get it from a secondhand bookstore rather than buying it brand new. You know, you're allowed to enjoy the media that you grew up with, and you're allowed to consume the media that makes you feel good, but you don't. That doesn't mean that you're a bad person because you're supporting a person who is inherently bad themselves. Does that make sense?
[00:07:43] Speaker A: Yeah, it does. And it's like, you know, like, a lot of our, like, rocket. Early rocket scientists were Nazi scientists and so on and so forth and.
[00:07:51] Speaker B: Exactly, you know.
[00:07:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, it's not like there's Nazi science, there's science. You know what I mean? At a certain point, it becomes utilitarian. Utilitarian. And, like, art's like that, too. I mean, you know, dude. I mean, I don't see anyone dropping Steven Tyler, even though he's a. You know, he's another one, you know.
[00:08:08] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:08:10] Speaker A: It's. People apply this very sporadically, but that doesn't mean that, like, Manson gets off. I mean.
[00:08:16] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:08:17] Speaker A: I can't go see him live because I. I feel like I'll be giving him money at that point, you know, directly.
[00:08:22] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:08:23] Speaker A: Yeah. It's. There's no ethical consumption under capitalism. But the problem is how disastrous this is when it's someone who you think is your friend and you come to a point where you realize that celebrities aren't your friends and that they're people, people who sometimes do horrible things.
And, you know, a lot of people are really upset. They don't know what to do with themselves because especially in fandoms like Neil Gaiman, you know, like, you know, fantasy fandoms, people get really into their fantasy worlds because, you know, generally we're, you know, people who are into this stuff are outcasts. They're, you know, they're different. They're. They're weird goth kids or anything. You know, I'm still a weird goth kid. You know, I'm the weird adult I was always going to grow up to be. And, you know, my thing is that, like, I've kind of walked away from making the writing of Mike Mignola. Hellboy comics, Neil Gaiman comics, my entire identity. You know, I haven't done the Star wars fandom, the Marvel fandom. I haven't done any of that in a long fucking time. And part of that is because I'm tired of this happening. But the bigger thing is that, like, I'm celebrating other people's art. You know, like, I've kind of gotten into just sort of obsessing over my own writing. My, you know, my Demonland novels, they're written in that same style, and that's kind of where I am.
And, yeah, I mean, with Gaiman, I haven't even started processing it, you know, but at a certain point, it's like.
[00:09:50] Speaker B: You know, I feel like it opens up a whole nother conversation of how fans interact with an artist's work. Yeah, I feel like. Entire point, exactly. I feel like bringing that up, it brings up the two sides of one coin of, you know, we're talking about idolization.
I swear I'm coming back around with this point, but think of the whole thing that happened with Chapel Roan recently and how she got. Basically, she talked back to a. If you don't know, she talked back to a photographer at the DNA. One of them was talking shit at her, and she turned around and immediately was like, fuck you. I'm not giving you any photos because if you're going to treat me like this, I'm not going to talk to you. And she's been under fire because she's been setting boundaries with fans and saying, hey, you know, when I'm out in public with my family trying to eat lunch, please don't come up and bother me for photos because I'm trying to spend time with my family.
[00:10:49] Speaker A: That's courtesy.
[00:10:51] Speaker B: Exactly. So it's. That's the other side of the coin of how do fans interact with an artist of any sort, you know, in idolization and how it becomes so heartbreaking whenever that artist might do something that you don't align with or might do something totally terrible like Neil Gaiman.
And it comes all the way back down to how do you, as a fan, interact with the artists that you love.
[00:11:20] Speaker A: People need to understand that these are parasocial relationships. It's only happening on one side.
[00:11:25] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:11:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Like. Like Rhea Ripley doesn't know you love her, you know?
[00:11:31] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:11:33] Speaker A: Yeah. She doesn't see. She doesn't see your. Your happiness when she's on screen.
[00:11:37] Speaker B: That's actually a really great example, because I know in wwe, she's got this whole, like, fake relationship that Liv Morgan's getting in on and everything like that, but on her real life, she's married. She just got married recently. There you go. There you go. Yeah. So it's like, fans need to be aware essentially, of the people that they are putting on pedestals and who they're idolizing.
[00:12:01] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. No, no, you're right. I mean, it makes me think about a Hulk Hogan, like, when he had his, like, sex tape and then his. His N word tape, and people are, like, freaking out, and I'm like, this is. This guy is as American as apple pie. I mean, right there. I mean, you know, like, do you want. You know, like, are you really surprised?
I don't know. And you don't love him because he's a pair. I mean, he's a moral paragon. You like him because he rips his shirt off and goes, oh, Pokemonia's here.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: Yeah. You have to remember that these are not just artists. These are people, too. And people, again, these are the two sides of the coins. People have boundaries. And also, people make mistakes. And so you have to remember that being the fan of the art.
[00:12:44] Speaker A: Yo, the fact that that's the chapel Roan thing is crazy. That that's what she's under fire for, man. I thought she fucking she. Because she said some, like, ignorant political things a bit ago, and even that I was like, so what? Who cares? Like, she's like a teenager or something. Like, gives a. But the fact that I heard she was under fire again, and I was like, what, did she, like, kiss the wrong person? Like, I don't. You know? Yeah, but no, it's someone not to take a picture of her, and it's like, oh, okay. That's pretty sad.
[00:13:13] Speaker B: Crazy.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The problem is Gaiman was really good at, like, playing that role, though. Like, my thing is that, like, when, you know, when you meet someone who describes themselves as a feminist, it's usually a problem. Like, my little sister asked me what a feminist was. She's like, you know, my little brother Yossi is calling. Our little brother Yossi is calling me a feminist. I'm like, well, I don't know. Do you think women should make the same as men? Do you think that women should be able to decide if they want to be a housewife? And she's like, yeah. I'm like, okay, well, you, like, most reasonable people are a feminist. You know, you don't need to declare it either. It's just. It's like asking if you're a geocentrist. Like, you know, oh, do you believe the Earth is the center of the universe? Well, then you're dumb. Like, I don't know to tell you, like, you know, hi, Adrian.
[00:14:05] Speaker B: So there was one in particular, and it was actually pretty. I wouldn't say super recently. It was when I was starting to really come together in my own personal belief system. I was recommended this book, and it was. It's called the Power of Kabbalah by Yehuda Berg. I think that's how. Forgive me if I butcher that name, but I'm pretty sure that's how you pronounce it. And this book is amazing to me because in my journey of finding what I believe in and finding my. What I call my religion, I did so much research across the board from one thing to another, and I wasn't really resonating with any one thing. And so I essentially just followed the rule of take what resonates, leave what doesn't. And I was kind of building my own belief system based off that. And I could never really find one particular thing that I resonated the most with until I found this book, the Power of Kabbalah. And I read through this book, and as I'm reading, I'm like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. This is making more and more sense. This is exactly what I've been believing in this entire time. And it's what introduced me into the idea of Hermetic Kabbalah. And so I go to research the author and I'm like, okay, tell me about this. I want to learn, like, where this came from, what this is, and come to find out sexual assault allegations as well as a bunch of other allegations, who. Apparently he. He was a part. I can't remember off the top of my head what the name of the center was, but it was like, back in the 2000s or 90s.
[00:15:39] Speaker A: Was it the Kaplan Center?
[00:15:41] Speaker B: I think so. It was the one that Madonna was really into and she wore the rest.
[00:15:45] Speaker A: It's the Kaplan Center. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I hate them. I don't. I'm not a fan of them. I don't like them.
[00:15:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I found that. I found all of that out as a Jewish person.
[00:15:55] Speaker A: They are. Yeah. They trivialize the true, you know, stream. I said, I don't. Listen, I'm not. I think Judaism is a pretty grotesque religion, personally, but it's still my heritage and I still care about it. And it's something that I. I know a great deal about, you know, and it bothers me that you could take this Ancient, like, you know, thing that frankly is fascinating and worthy of study and learning, worthy of, you know, being preserved in some respect. And you, you know, you boil it down to something to just sell to the non Jews. Like, what do you.
[00:16:27] Speaker B: What the is that exactly?
[00:16:30] Speaker A: Just selling bracelets and dumb. Like, Like Chacha.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: That's my thing. So. Well, the book though that you were reading is probably great. What was it about? Was it about like Luriana Kabbalah or something?
[00:16:43] Speaker B: So essentially the way that he described it even in the beginning of the book is that there's multiple different types of Kabbalah. Traditional Kabbalah is a closed practice in ancient religion. It is one that you have to be a man of certain age to be able to read these texts, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then he said, this Kabbalah that I am teaching in this book is a hermetic school of thought. So it is not meant to be. It's meant to be something that is open to everybody and it's meant to be something that you can apply this thought process to and this thought belief to. And it's supposed to help make sense of the things that you're trying to believe. And it's been. It was about three years ago that I read this book. I really need to go back into it and reread it again. Um, but it was essentially, I would describe it as a self help book. It very much.
It very much was a book that made me feel like I wasn't crazy. And it kind of laid out a blueprint for me of everything that I had already believed in before, but it had given a name to it.
[00:17:48] Speaker A: Fascinating.
[00:17:49] Speaker B: And. Yeah, yeah. And it made me feel like I had actually found something.
[00:17:54] Speaker A: And you probably did. And it probably, you know. Yeah, you've probably carried a lot of it forward.
[00:18:00] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
[00:18:03] Speaker A: So. So that guy's a sex pest. Who wrote that book? That's pretty sucky. The Kaplan Center. Pretty sure that's what they're called. Yeah, yeah. Have you started on that stuff?
[00:18:13] Speaker B: So disappointed when I found all of that out. I was so incredibly disappointed.
[00:18:19] Speaker A: No one like, you know, another human being to, you know, make you sad that you're human.
[00:18:23] Speaker B: Right, exactly.
[00:18:25] Speaker A: Yeah. I tell Adrian all the time because, you know, we, we chat a lot, like if I ever get rich, just, just kill me, you know, because all these men seem to go crazy when they make like more than six figures. You know, they all suddenly have like sexual proclivities and stuff. The thing about Guyman and Manson, that really bothers me is they have these long relationships with women who, like, say, like, I never experienced any of this, but I stand with the victims or whatever. And like, what it comes down to is like, Manson and guy, both targets, like women who are vulnerable, you know, and it's like, people go like, gaiman's rich enough, he could just find a woman to do the BDSM with him and it'll be consensual. And it's like the non consent is the point, you know, like creepy like that. Yeah, they're creepy like that. Yeah, in a bad way. You know, I don't know, It's. It's pretty. It's pretty sucky. So, okay, so you, you have the thing with Manson that I have the same kind of thing. Is there anyone else that you feel that way about? Like, that you feel like. And Manson's the big one. Because I, I really looked up to Manson. Like, part of my Persona is very Manson esque. I mean, I can't help it, you know? Like, it's not even that I'm emulating him, it's just this is a way that I can express myself that makes sense, you know?
[00:19:35] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. Another person for me, J.K. rowling.
[00:19:41] Speaker A: Rowling, yeah. Rowling's a weird one, because she could have just kept her mouth shut about that stuff and been the next Ursula K. Le Guin.
[00:19:49] Speaker B: Like, yeah. And see, here's the thing is, when everything first came out, I am a really big person of, okay, I need to hear every side of the story before I make my decision, before I form my opinion. So whenever I heard all of these people talking about, like, oh, J.K. rowling said this. She's a terp. Everything best, that and the other, I went to her page and I'm like, looking for everything that she said and I'm like, huh, I'm not really seeing much. And then everybody kept pushing. She's a turf. She's a perf. And it's almost like, from my perspective, it's almost like she took that and was like, I'll be that. Yeah, I'll do that. It's like you said, too.
[00:20:34] Speaker A: I'm sorry, she's a Holocaust denier too.
[00:20:37] Speaker B: I didn't even know about that. I did not.
[00:20:39] Speaker A: Yeah, well, someone pointed out that the first people the Nazis came for were the gay and trans people. And she's like, it's not true. And people were showing her pictures of the gender clinic in Berlin Limb, which was one of the first gender clinics in the world. They were studying, you know, gender theory and all this stuff that we talk about now. And they. They. They went in there and they. They dragged. Those books they were burning, were books on gender theory. Well, Rowling was like, that didn't happen. That's not true. And, I mean, if that's not. If. If that's not Holocaust denial, I don't know what else is.
[00:21:06] Speaker B: I mean, that literally makes me want to throw up. It's so.
[00:21:11] Speaker A: Yeah, like, she chose this as her pet thing. And it's like, you know, like, I don't shut up about Gaza, but I don't. I mean, come on, you know, like, you're gonna come after, like, one of the most marginalized groups in the fucking world. I mean, like, there was a time when I didn't believe the trans. That trans people were, like, a legitimate thing, but I kept my mouth shut because I still felt bad for them. And I felt like they deserved the right to express themselves any way they would want to be. It's their life. I've come around. Like, I've educated myself, and I don't think that anymore. But, like, even when I was, like, a shithead like that, you know, I didn't go around spouting it because I didn't think there was some kind of, like, culture war or something, trying to turn girls into whatever, you know?
[00:21:53] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:21:54] Speaker A: Because that's what it comes down to. It's like, you know, you really think you're this big warrior for. I don't know. I just. I don't get it. Because, like, she's so wealthy that she could easily educate herself she chooses.
[00:22:06] Speaker B: Not exactly, you know, like. Yeah, baffling.
[00:22:10] Speaker A: It's baffling. And it's. It's like you have to put in the work. But, like, again, it's JK fucking Rowling. And, like, you read her books and it's like Orson Scott Card. There's nothing. There's no. There's not like a. There's not a.
There's not a male wizard putting on a wig and claiming to be a woman using the girl's bathroom, you know, who then molests some. You know what I mean? She doesn't put that in her book. So it's like she has to go out there and say it and be a shithead, and she does.
[00:22:39] Speaker B: Exactly. It's. It's what makes it so.
And I feel like this kind of comes back to Neil Gaiman as well, is that you think that these people who have this incredible ability to create whole universes of magic and beauty and the relationships in Harry Potter and the way that the relationships build and the way that these kids grow up together. It's this beautifully interwoven story of so many different things. And you. It kind of puts it in your mind that this person that is able to create such a beautiful universe of beautiful character development and relationships, there's no way that they could have that kind of hate in their heart. But again, it comes back into what I said. The two sides of that coin is that people are human, so therefore they have boundaries and therefore they also make mistakes.
[00:23:40] Speaker A: Well, I like to tell my story about. There was this guy who, you know, he gave his inheritance. You know, he was supposed to inherit a bunch of money. He gave it to his sister, he let her inherit it, and he was. He was poor for many years. You know, that person's name is Adolf Hitler, you know, so, like, that's my point. It's like we're talking about people at the end of the day. I mean, Rowling's another rough one because, like, you know, like, I also. I mean, I liked Harry Potter until I read other books, but, like, a lot of people, like, like, I mean, Harry himself is an outcast. He's treated like garbage by his fucking adopted family. And he gets this world of magic that he can escape to and speaks for itself, doesn't it? I mean, you know, there's people that are going to gravitate towards that. It's like Manson music or my Neil Gaiman novels, you know, it's the same kind of thing. And, yeah, these people let you down. And it's devastating.
[00:24:27] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah, it's devastating. But it comes back to, again, what I was talking about before with, you know, you have to. It comes down to the fans and the relationship that the fans create with the artist. And not to say that that excuses any of what the artist does and that gives them a pass to the artist to be human. But it's. Again, I'd say, here's a good one. Have you heard that on TikTok of like, oh, we made the right person famous? That's been a phrase that I've been hearing people throw around for, you know, creators, like, say, markiplier, oh, we made the right person famous. You know, it's about how much idolization you give to somebody and what kind of pedestal you put somebody on and. Yeah, yeah.
[00:25:15] Speaker A: Interesting.
Yeah. Because at the end of the day, we are going to venerate people. It's human nature.
[00:25:21] Speaker B: It is. It is human nature. It is. Because we are Constantly. We're pack animals. We look for a leader and when the leader lets us down, what do we go and how do we go from there?
[00:25:31] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
You know, it's funny because, like, I noticed that in the Manson fandom, like I made a video about being a manson fan in 2024, 2025 now. But regardless, same sentiment. And people, I don't even think they watched the video because I didn't say anything that isn't public knowledge. People were just yelling at me for bringing it up. They were like, you know, this woman recanted this and that and they didn't care about the context of they're, you know, they're being harassed by people.
Manson probably sent her a thread. You know, it's not easy to sue people either in America. It's basically a very expensive jousting competition and the person with more money has the bigger lance, really. You know, and like, I'm just like taken aback by how far people will go to defend someone and it's like, like they can all be wrong. He still shouldn't have been with the young girl. That's kind of like when I got into him, it was around the Eat Me Drink Me era. And maybe that makes me a poser or something. But like, I really like that album. I like all his albums, actually. I have something to say about every one of them.
[00:26:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:38] Speaker A: And I learned that it was about this very young girl who was my age at the time. And I was like, I don't like that.
[00:26:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:44] Speaker A: And this song, that heart shaped glasses, it was about this girl I was dating in my head. It was about this girl I was dating who was leaving me soon because high school was ending and she was going to college far away and we weren't going to be together again. And like that, that line, kiss me, it will heal, but it won't forget. Like, it just made me think about her all the time. And you know, that was a relationship I had with the song. But it's really about his young girl is a Lolita and she's wearing, you know, in heart shaped glasses. Like Lolita tends to wear the heart shaped glasses in depictions of that novel. It's of course a novel about, you know, an older man who dates a, an underage girl. Very gross. So I, you know, not a fan. But yeah, kind of like would bring that up in conversation. Like really don't think he should be with the young girl. But yo, this album is crazy. You know, it's about JFK and this and that and, and I just think that people never really reckoned with it. They were like, ah, rock stars do this. And it's like, why do we normalize that? You know?
[00:27:41] Speaker B: Yeah, like why? That took the words right out of my mouth. Why do we normalize that? Because it's not a normal thing. It's absolutely not.
[00:27:51] Speaker A: And if it is normal, then we should be better, you know?
[00:27:55] Speaker B: Exactly. We should be.
We absolutely should be.
[00:27:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Like my boyfriend said something interesting the other day. He said little kids chase pigeons and you have to teach them empathy because you know they will hurt small animals because they don't understand. And what you got to remember is human beings are predators and, you know, concepts like that are.
I mean, they're the result of modernity. Not to say that altruism doesn't exist in the wild or empathy doesn't exist in the wild, but it's something we prize and it's something that makes our social contract work.
[00:28:27] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:28:28] Speaker A: You know, fuckers like Gaiman are violating that.
[00:28:31] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:28:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, if it is natural, it doesn't matter. It's still wrong, you know, it is.
[00:28:37] Speaker B: What makes us coming down to, like, base animal instinct, what separates us from the animals of the animal world is our ability to ask why. We're able to look at our emotions and our instincts and say, okay, but why do I feel that way? Why do I do this? And it gives us the ability to pause before we take action and say, wait, is this going to harm?
Like cats, you know, when cats mate, males grip onto the necks of the females and it's painful for them. They don't have the ability to say, wait, I don't want to hurt my mate. They just have the natural instinct to do, even though it hurts the other, it hurts the other cat. That's what they're cats. It's what separates us from the animal world is us being able to say, wait, that's going to hurt them. And I don't want to do that. We have that innate ability within us to stop ourselves and say, wait, this is a person, this is another being.
So quite frankly, going against that and still harming another being, it goes against being human. It makes you inhuman, essentially.
[00:29:46] Speaker A: No, I agree. I mean, bearded dragons do that too. I mean, that's why I don't breed my lizards. I love my lizards. I don't want them to hurt each other.
[00:29:53] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:29:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, some people might say that slavery is natural too. I mean, every fucking culture does it. We even still still do it, you know, it doesn't make it right.
[00:30:05] Speaker B: It doesn't make it right.
[00:30:06] Speaker A: I use it in the way that a lot of like humanists use it where the point is to cause as little harm as possible and maximize happiness for as many people as possible. And like, you know, rich, like Neil Gaiman who just think they can do whatever they want. I mean they fly right in the face of that. So, you know, I don't know, man. I would say pick better heroes, but like, you know, you don't know. For every Pratchett or Stephen King there's a couple Neil Gaiman's out there, you know.
[00:30:33] Speaker B: Right. You never truly know a person and you especially never truly know your idols.
[00:30:38] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:30:39] Speaker B: So it goes back down to again. How far can you separate the art from the artist is the big question in itself.
[00:30:46] Speaker A: Yeah, and I mean, I guess, I guess we'll, we'll tackle that when we do our true episode. But you know, there we go.
