The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hi, welcome back to the Demon Toast Podcast. I am your host, King Loki. Wait, hang on. I fucked it up already. Hi, welcome back to the Demon Toast Podcast, the official show for Death Wish Poetry magazine, where we cover horrific and gothic literature and art and the horrific people behind it. I'm your host, King Loki, which is old Norse for Daniel Sokoloff. And I am the editor of Deathless Poetry magazine. With me is my wonderful erudite co host, Erica Jordan. [00:00:35] Speaker B: Hello. [00:00:36] Speaker A: She is a poet and writer and intellectual. How you doing, Erica? [00:00:40] Speaker B: I'm doing well, thank you. Very, very excited today. [00:00:46] Speaker A: Yeah, me too. Me too. I would introduce my other co host, but sadly, Brittany is deathly ill with something I think she's possessed by, you know, rock and roll demons, Rock and roll goblins. She didn't brush her teeth. Oh, and Adrian is at a convention selling art and got held up by space biker. So she may show up later covered in. In Gorr and Visera. But that being the case, I have one of my assistant editors, Jack. Jack Brennan. That is Jack. How you doing? [00:01:21] Speaker C: Doing good, thanks. And greetings from the Pit. [00:01:24] Speaker A: From the pit. Yeah. Fall into the void with us. Or don't. And I also brought along my boyfriend, Justin. [00:01:30] Speaker D: Hi. [00:01:31] Speaker A: Yeah, Justin's a pharmacist and he loves. He loves our topic, which we'll get into tonight. We will be talking about the Insane Clown Posse. Oh, fuck. Oh, hang on. Yeah, Godzilla here is telling me that we're supposed to be talking about Billy and Mandy. So sorry about that. Oh, yes. All right. That kayfabe sucked. We're not. I also have my boyfriend Justin here. He's a pharmacist and is a. A big fan of our topic tonight, which is the classic Cartoon Network show, the Grim Adventures of Millie and Mandy. Right, so. Oh, it doesn't look hound. Yeah, that's all dead. Okay. So, yeah. So, all right. Obviously, I have not watched the show in a hot minute. When I first encountered it, my siblings were watching it. I have eight siblings. They're all a lot younger than me, so they were the right age to be watching this. For my part, I. I liked it. I didn't like it as much as Invader Zim, but which was on the air at the same time. But I don't know. What's your history with the Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy? Erica? [00:02:44] Speaker B: It was something that I grew up watching because I was kind of in that age range. I'm kind of on the opposite end of the spectrum in that regard. My siblings were a little too old to be watching things like that because I'm the youngest of seven. But it was right up my alley as a certified creepy kid. I was also really big on things like Invader Zim and, like, oh, my goodness, Best Fiends. So when Billy and Mandy started airing, I was obsessed. [00:03:16] Speaker A: Yeah, Best Fiends. Isn't that an app game? Isn't it, like, Candy Crush? [00:03:22] Speaker B: Oh, gosh. If it's not Best Fiends making fiends, it might be making Fiends. It has fiends somewhere in the name instead of friends. [00:03:34] Speaker C: I know what she's talking about. [00:03:35] Speaker A: Yeah, me too. It's. It's an app game where they're like, play Best Fiends down. [00:03:40] Speaker C: No, no, she's talking about a show, isn't she? [00:03:41] Speaker B: Nickelodeon show, too, though, with, like, creepy blue girl and the green colored girls. Yes, a blue girl and a yellow girl. One of them's very upbeat. The other one's very, very. [00:03:53] Speaker A: No. [00:03:53] Speaker C: No. The answer is no. Okay. [00:03:59] Speaker A: Interesting. Well, Jack, did you. Did you watch Billy and Mandy when it was on the air? [00:04:07] Speaker C: I did, indeed. I was kind of, like, young for the show, I think when I was really young, apparently, I was afraid of it, according to my older brothers, and they couldn't watch it because of me, because I was afraid. So, you know, that's. They had beef with me for that. But as I got older, old enough to remember, I enjoyed really, like, I really liked the show when it was on. It was a mainstay of cartoons, pre 2000s for me. Anyway, they're always playing it, so we were always watching it. [00:04:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Justin, did you watch the show when it was on the air? [00:04:36] Speaker D: Yeah, I really loved the show when I was a kid. I remember when it came out. I remember all of, like, the ads for it. There was, like, this huge thing at the time where the Cartoon Network, like, had ordered a bunch of pilots and were airing them on their Friday night slot with, like, all of their other cartoons, like the Powerpuff Girls and Dexter's Lab. Tiny Squad was out at that time, too. That was a good show, but much more cloud. After they aired all of the pilots, they had a contest to vote on which pilot was gonna get made into a Cartoon Network show. And Billy and Mandy was the show that won that year. And then the second year they did it, Kids Next Door was the other one that won all the votes. At least I remember it. I don't know. I felt like I was in the perfect age range for that show just because, like, it came out. When I was like end of elementary school, beginning of middle school. So that's pretty much my history with it. [00:05:40] Speaker A: Okay, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what was, what was the show that it. It premiered on? What was it called? [00:05:48] Speaker D: I don't really think it was called anything. It was just a. Okay. Yeah, it was just like they aired a bunch of pilots and they had like the kids vote on it. I didn't vote on it because I wasn't really allowed to like call in or use the phone or anything like that for that at that time, so. [00:06:07] Speaker A: Right, well, yeah, so yeah, I mean, it was on the air. It was, it, it was. It definitely did beat out a lot of other shows. And I think that before we get into talking about the show proper, I'd like to lay a little bit of groundwork. Of course, I do want to mention that it's just one of the several well important and culturally devastating things that happened to America and the world in 2001. You know, it appeared in August of that year, a sheer month before America totally lost its shit over 9 11. So, you know, which is when, if you're younger than. I don't know, some year. I don't know if you're significantly younger than me. You probably weren't alive for that time, Jack. You weren't, you weren't around for that, right? [00:06:54] Speaker C: No, I was not. [00:06:55] Speaker A: Yeah, Jack was a baby when 911 happened. [00:06:58] Speaker C: So yeah, I was not even a baby. I was, you know, a sperm swimming in my dad's ball sack. [00:07:03] Speaker A: Gross. Yeah, so Jack was not a person at the time. So he has no idea. So the World Trade center, which was two massive buildings in New York City got hit by planes flown by terrorists and other things that may have happened to which led to wars and suffering and all kinds of horrible, horrible things. So yeah, because Billy and Mandy premiered a good month before that, that frees us having to address whether or not the show's fixation on morpidity, morbidity and anti intellectual themes was a reaction to 9 11. It was not. It had nothing to do with it. The world was actually just that fucked. So yeah, this show was created as a counterpart to another show called Evil Con Carne, which we will not be talking about because it is a entire bag of cats. You know, it is pretty wild. Billy and Mandy made up one half of it. It was called Grim and Evil. It was in the style of Dexter's Lab, which was basically a Dexter's Lab cartoon. Something wacky like Dial M for Monkey, which was like just a Little show about like a monkey or something called Justice Friends where it was like little cartoons about superheroes and then another Dexter's Lab cartoon. Main cartoon. Something goofy. Main cartoon. So was Billy and Mandy evil con carne. Right. And each segment would be like around 10ish minutes, 7 minutes, give or take. Both shows got spun off onto their own thing. Billy and Mandy of course, is what I think we all saw. I never saw grim and evil. I've never even seen evil con carne. I've read about it. The character, what's the guy's name? General Stryker. [00:08:46] Speaker D: Scar. [00:08:46] Speaker A: Scar. Fuck is General Stryker. Scar is actually in the Billy and Mandy movie, which is a TV movie, which is pretty great. That said, I think the best place to start with Billy and Mandy is probably the pilot episode. It introduces the premise. Billy is a gruesomely stupid and gross boy. He laughs like a lout and eats the the boogies he scrapes out of his massive nose. And as a Jew, I do mean massive. That it is a big nose, right? His best friend, a dower Kurt, misanthropic little girl in a pink dress. Mandy was visiting him because his hamster, you know. Wait, hang on. She's visiting for his hamster's birthday party. His hamster? His name is Mr. Snuggles. Well, Mr. Snuggles is 10 years old. Hamsters are rodents. They don't live a very long time. And surprise, surprise, the Grim Reaper shows up to claim Mr. Snuggles life. Mandy blocks Grim the Grim Reaper's way and tells him he's not leaving. He will not be taking Billy's hamster. Grim laughs at her impudence as he's the all powerful arbiter of death and well will not be blocked by a mere child. Mandy challenges him to a game, the terms of which are that if they win, not only will Mr. Snuggles be spared, but the Grim Reaper will have to be their best friend forever and ever. And of course, if they lose, they just die. Let's see which society is often playing. Oh, there's like a weird quote in here. I don't know why that's there. Oh well, it doesn't really matter. They play a game of whip of limbo and the Grim Reaper of course is kicking their ass because he's the Grim Reaper and you can't beat death on anything. Except this is a stupid show. And they set up ahead of time that if, when you say when, when Billy says kiss kiss, the hamster starts eating his head. Well Mandy's like as Grim is Beating them. Making the limbo thing lower and lower and magically going lower. He's like, any last words? And Mandy goes, yeah, kiss, kiss. Which causes the hamster to start eating his. His, you know, awful skull face. He, of course, loses limbo and is becomes their slave after that. They said best friend, but apparently that means, you know, eternal slave. It's a very weird show, but this is awesome because this is actually a sprinkler spoof of a classic Ingmar Bergman movie called the Seventh Seal. Have any. Either of you seen that movie? I know Justin's Talk. [00:11:31] Speaker C: I have seen parts of it. [00:11:32] Speaker A: Okay, I have not even. [00:11:34] Speaker C: And the same film is referenced in Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey. [00:11:40] Speaker A: Have not seen Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey. Wait, Erica, you. You did not see the Seven Seal? [00:11:46] Speaker B: No, I've never even heard of it. [00:11:50] Speaker A: Oh, well, watch it. It's great. So basically, there's a knight who. There's a lot of things that happen in this movie. It's a very dense movie. But the key thing is that a knight is it's his time to die. And he tells the Grim reaper, let's play a game. Let's play chess. If I could beat you in chess, I can go on living. Grim Reaper says, sure, whatever. And it becomes clear very quickly that he cannot beat the Grim Reaper at chess. He's too good. So the knight knocks the pieces over. The Grim Reaper calmly puts the pieces back, you know, back where they were, because it's inevitable. You can't lose. You can't beat the Grim Reaper, and you can't cheat him. Of course, Billy and Mandy is a dumb, anti intellectual show, so that is not what happens. [00:12:39] Speaker C: And Bill and Ted, they basically do the exact same plot, but instead of chess, they play Clue and they beat Death. So he's like, okay, let's play another game. And he. They play Battleship, and they beat him again. And he's like, let's play another game. And then they play Twister. And they beat him again at that, too. [00:12:57] Speaker A: Huh. [00:12:57] Speaker B: Beating Death at Twister. Yeah. [00:13:04] Speaker C: You get to hear him in, like, his sick. Because it's like the same. It's the exact same version of Death. He has, like, the accent and everything, so he even says, like, you have sunk my battleship in the accent. [00:13:14] Speaker A: That's pretty funny. I don't even know what to say to that. So you don't really win Clue, right? You just sort of, like, find the killer. [00:13:23] Speaker C: Oh, well, yeah, you can win Clue. [00:13:26] Speaker A: I don't play Clue. All right, well, there are a couple things to note about the show's formula depicted here in the first episode. Right. Which would be refined and perfected across. Across its seven seasons and 160 segments. That's a lot of dumb cartoons. The first, of course, is the clever theming, which I feel is its strongest suit. The first episode, of course, as I just said, spoofs that famous scene in the Seventh Seal. You know, the stakes, of course, are usually pretty serious. Pretty. Pretty dumb and goofy. Anyway, interestingly enough, the reason why the Grim Reaper, who is just referred to as Grimm throughout the show, speaks in a Jamaican accent is because the voice actor, Greg Eagles, who is not Jamaican, by the way. I don't even think he's black. He was trying to do a Swedish accent, and he was so horrible at it that he sounded Jamaican. And Maxwell Adams was like, you know, the creator of the show was like, just do that. So has a Jamaican accent throughout the run of the show. [00:14:43] Speaker C: I heard that they wanted to have him have a British accent because they thought that would fit better, like him having. Being British. And they, in fact, wanted him. They wanted him to be played by one of the people from the show, Lost in Space. I think it's the British character, like Dr. Smith or something. But they didn't. They would decide not to go with him because they thought it wasn't a good fit. [00:15:03] Speaker A: Wow. [00:15:04] Speaker C: That's what I heard. [00:15:05] Speaker A: Shocking. Shocking stuff. Well, either way, we have the Grim Reaper with the. With the cartoon with the hilariously bad Jamaican accent. It's kind of amazing what you. What you think you're doing, man. You know, Fucking. Fucking pissed off all the time. Billy, of course, is voiced by the great Richard Horvitz, who has a long, illustrious career. He's most famous for voicing Invader Zim, which is my personal favorite cartoon. We should be talking about that. It's literally the greatest show ever made. [00:15:36] Speaker C: Shocking. Shocking that you like that show. [00:15:38] Speaker A: I know, I know, I know. The show about a megalomaniacal little alien who thinks he's better than he is and horrible things happen to him constantly. Yeah, yeah, I know. Richard Horowitz also, interestingly enough, voiced a character called. What'd you say? [00:15:54] Speaker B: I was saying Zim doesn't think he is great. It's well deserved. [00:16:02] Speaker C: He is great. He is. [00:16:05] Speaker A: Pigs are for science. Prepare for screaming temporal doom. Yeah, he's pretty great. I watch Billy and Mandy and, like, the Debt. Richard Horvitz voices Billy and he voices the dad, and sometimes the dad is just Zim. Like, literally, he's just Invader Zim, like, but he's saying ridiculous things. He's talking about his lucky pants and frying eggs, and it's like, oh, my God, stop it. There's a video of Richard Horvitz just, like, talking, and it's, it's. It's nightmare fuel because he's just talking about driving his car. It's Invader's aim just going. Oh, yes. And then I, you know, I can't do the Horbit voice. I, I suck. I. I'll put a clip here of Richard Horvitz talking. Yeah, it's pretty horrific, though. Truly shocking stuff there. That's for the clip anyway. What else did I have? All right. Yeah, yeah. Richard Horvitz also voiced a character called Alpha 5 on Power Rangers. I think it's the little red, red guy. Little, Little robot Man. I, I, I. Right. Yeah. It's kind. It's kind of shocking to think back that that's actually him. Anyway, yeah, the show was on the air at the same time as Invader Zim, so any thematic similarities are coincidental because shows spend a lot of time in development. There's really no way these shows were, you know. Yeah. Stealing from it. It's not a Swamp Thing, Man Thing situation where the creators of each thing were roommates. Yeah. Yeah. So Billy's stupidity is mostly played for laughs, and he's the driving force from a lot of the episodes. Kind of like how Stimpy is kind of. Wait, hang on. Much as it is for Stimpy and this show's direct ancestor, Ren and Stimpy, which is a show we will talk about a bit tonight for obvious reasons. So Mandy's voiced by Greg Delisle. Can't read Mandy's voice by Gray Delisle, who is most famous, for our purposes, for voicing Daphne in a ton of Scooby Doo movies. Not in any of the shows I've seen. Right. Justin. [00:18:16] Speaker D: She may have voiced her in Mr. Inc. I don't remember. [00:18:20] Speaker A: Yeah, whatever. Who cares? He knows a lot. He knows voice actors. Like, he can. He can pick him out. It's pretty crazy. [00:18:26] Speaker D: She was Raven and Teen Titans. [00:18:29] Speaker A: Really? [00:18:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:18:30] Speaker C: No, I think that was Terra Strong. [00:18:32] Speaker A: No. Oh, was it? [00:18:34] Speaker C: Yeah, it was. Was it? Okay. [00:18:36] Speaker A: Oh, never mind. Your credential just died. [00:18:38] Speaker C: Justin, how could you? [00:18:40] Speaker D: She's Princess. [00:18:41] Speaker C: I know that she is. She's most prolific as really kind of a background character voicer. Like, if you want voices for background characters, she's really. That's. She's who you call. She plays pretty much every female background character in Invincible Almost. [00:18:56] Speaker A: Really? [00:18:57] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:18:57] Speaker C: She's Monster Girl. [00:18:58] Speaker A: Wait, she's Monster Girl? [00:19:00] Speaker C: And she's also just constantly in the background playing different characters. [00:19:05] Speaker A: Well, that's compelling. Wow. Well, I guess she's really talented. I mean, I like her as Mandy. She's pretty funny. Let's talk about Mandy. I mean, she's taciturn, disinterested in the world around her. She responds to typical cartoon plots with a coldness and disaffection that is dripping with post grunge world weariness. Love is for the weak minded. Sometimes you drink the milk, sometimes the milk drinks you. And other Zen coons are things that she says, you know, Maxwell Adams, the creator of the show, says that Billy and Mandy are the two sides of his Asperger's syndrome. Right. He says that both characters are on the spectrum. Billy represents his goofy inner life and Mandy is the cold disaffection, the front he has to put on in order to survive in the world. So I think that's pretty interesting. What do you guys think about Billy and Mandy in general? [00:20:01] Speaker B: Just like in an overarching kind of sense. It's very easy to say I enjoy it just at a base level. It makes my inner child happy and it brings back positive memories in the that regard. [00:20:13] Speaker C: Right. [00:20:14] Speaker B: But I do also really appreciate that darkness and the anti intellectualism to it because it is very stupid. But I feel like a lot of it is very poignantly stupid. My favorite thing to tell my mom growing up was it's teaching me what not to do. So. [00:20:38] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:20:40] Speaker A: What do you think of the characters of Billy and Mandy specifically, though? [00:20:44] Speaker B: I think Grim and Mandy definitely hold a special place in my heart because of how they're presented. Especially Mandy, because when you first see her in the blonde hair, even with how it's styled in the little pink dress, make you think, oh, she's gonna be so cute and bubbly. Right. And then she's this little terror and I just love it. The way that she effectively traumatizes death on a daily basis is how I'm trying to vibe through life, honestly. [00:21:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I love the character of Grim because I. I am also an old man who yells at people. You know, I tried to watch TV here. Why can't you go somewhere else, Billy? You know, Billy's a Grim. What was it, Justin? What was it? The mirror universe? Yeah, he's like, he's like, what's the mirror universe? He's like, you can't go there. Also, it's off limits to idiots. Like, you know, I. I love that character. Justin, what do you think about the characters of Billy and Mandy? [00:21:48] Speaker D: I think they're kind of hilarious. They. The really. The really stupid, like, overreactive idiot, and the smarter, more cold, calculating whatchamacallit characters really, like, neat cartoon character trope where it ends up playing off each other very well. Because, like, you have Ren and Stimpy. You have Pinky and the Brain. There's even, like, Beavis and Butthead and Daria in there as well as, like, more of a direct comparison. [00:22:20] Speaker A: Sure. [00:22:21] Speaker D: But I remember as a kid, I just. I. I thought all of the. Like, I was always, like, really into, like, the humor of, like, that show specifically, especially the sheer randomness of its stupidity. And I don't know, every single thing, like, both characters did, whether together or apart, always, like, struck a chord with me just because I was always laughing at it. [00:22:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:45] Speaker D: I do also just want to say that I looked it up real quick. Greg Eagles's play. [00:22:50] Speaker A: Okay. I guess I will be cutting that out. I could have. I looked him up. I thought he was white. [00:22:54] Speaker C: All right. [00:22:56] Speaker A: All right. Yeah, that's fine. I'm an idiot. Not the first time I'm wrong about something. I'm frequently wrong. Yeah. So I. I do want to say that I. I personally found Billy's stupidity to be kind of horrific. Like, there's things that happen. Like, there's an episode where there's a. There's a character called Nurgle. He's a being of pure darkness and evil who lives at the center of the Earth, and he's effectively H.P. lovecraft's character, Nyarlathotep, the Crawling Chaos. Jack, do you want to say something? [00:23:30] Speaker C: Not right now. [00:23:31] Speaker A: Okay. I thought I could have sworn you had something. Okay, nevermind. [00:23:33] Speaker C: Anyway, I was just thinking about Nyarlarthotep for a second. Like, I was, like, really easy. Like Neil Arthotep. I don't think he is, but whatever. You keep going with this. Your. [00:23:41] Speaker A: Your analysis, my unfounded theories, Right. Well, he's effectively Nyarlathotep. He's a being of darkness. He causes chaos, and he gets involved in people's lives and destroys them. Like Nyarlathotep. They call him Nurgle because Nyarlathotep is kind of a long name for little kids to say. But that being said, there's an episode where he comes up from the center of the earth, marry Billy's awful aunt, and a lot of the drama is them trying to keep him from Marrying her not because they care about the aunt, but because they don't want to be related to Nurgle if he marries Billy's aunt, and this awful guy will be Billy's uncle. Anyway, they're unsuccessful, and she marries Nurgle and goes to the center of the earth. And the last thing that happens is like. Like, them just watching, like, the. The earth close and Billy screaming, I found another treat in the litter box, everyone. And, like, I don't know, there's something about that. Like, everything that just happens didn't matter. Like, all this, you just watch something. You just watched an entire plotline, like, play itself out, and what's the point? Billy just found the cat a cat turd in the litter box, you know, snack time. [00:25:06] Speaker B: It is very. What's the right word? It's entertaining, sure. But when you address it from that sort of standpoint, it's, like, disruptive and destructive for Billy to behaving in that regard. Be behaving in that regard. [00:25:25] Speaker A: We're. [00:25:25] Speaker B: Words are hard. [00:25:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Erica, you're breaking up really bad. Do you want to say that again? I'm sorry. [00:25:34] Speaker B: I'm sorry. Our Internet's not the best up here. I was saying that just, like, overall, it's entertaining to see those sorts of things kind of hit that kind of standstill at the end of the episode. Like, oh, well, what was the point of going through this whole plot? Right? But it's also very destructive, both feeling and for Billy to be behaving in that way, because it does dismantle everything. And it's like, well, what was the point if we're just gonna focus on litter box treats? [00:26:07] Speaker A: Yeah, A lot of the episodes end that way. They punctuate, like. They punctuate the clever buildup of the episodes with, like, stupid jokes. And, I mean, Justin has a theory about the show and why it gets away with so much. Do you want to elaborate, Justin? [00:26:23] Speaker D: Yeah. So there's, like, this really weird thing that I've noticed in cartoons, especially when it comes to violence, you can essentially do whatever you want as long as you have no blood, because then it's just basic cartoon violence. Oh, no. Billy's face got ripped off, and he's talking as a skull. He's gonna be fine in, like, three seconds. Oh, no. There's a whole episode. There's a whole musical episode where a meteor falls from the sky and it's eating everyone in town's brains. You see it? Suck their brains right out of their gears. And it's just like. I guess as an Adult. You wonder at the implications of that. You're like, how did they make this for children? How did they get away with it? And it's just that it's not scary for kids. There's nothing real about it. It's just like a natural evolution of the Looney Tunes style violence. There's zero consequences to it. You have whole episodes where everyone essentially dies. And then it's just like, they're fine. They show up in the very next episode. It literally didn't matter. Which is why I've never really even thought about violence in cartoons, like, on that level until, you know, Dan was just like, this is really disturbing. He's eating all their brains. How are they getting away with this? At least that's my theory. Scary. [00:27:39] Speaker A: Yeah, that episode's a standout. It's crazy. [00:27:42] Speaker C: Like Billy, a song by Aurelio Voltaire in it. [00:27:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, Voltaire is great. They also did a song for the movie, which is awesome. That episode is crazy though. Like, basically Billy is all depressed because no one will play with him. And he's like. He looks up at the sky and he's like, oh, mighty wishing star, please give me someone to play with. The meteor crash lands and there's a horrible brain eating alien that lives in the meteor. And it's singing, oh, give me them brains. And Billy's just bringing everyone into the town and it's sucking their brains out of their fucking ears and turning them into zombies. And it isn't until it wants to eat Mandy that he starts to feel bad. And she's like, no, no, it's okay. And of course it eats her brain. And Mandy takes over and becomes a brain eating monster. Which is awesome because Mandy is nasty, cruel and. Well, what's. What do I want to say? Destined for world domination one way or the other. Right? Jack, do you want to tell us about the Dune episode? [00:28:50] Speaker C: Just real quickly, I wanted to point out that in that episode, the Little Rock of Horror, I believe it's called, the reason that song is five minutes long is because when they got Aurelia Voltaire, he was like, so what are you paying me? He's like, well, will pay you depending on how long it is. And he was like, well, how long can I make it? And they were like five minutes. And he was like, well, the song will be five minutes. And that's why in the opening there's like a lot of dun dun dun dun dun dun dun. And you know, it keeps. That opening is real long so he can stretch it out, get his More bang for his buck. [00:29:18] Speaker A: That is a great bit of trivia. [00:29:21] Speaker C: Yeah. But the Dune episode is one of my favorites because I like future. I like episodes where they go in the future. And I didn't even realize it was a Dune reference. But now it makes a lot more sense because that episode, they seem to the future. Mandy has taken over. She is a gigantic worm, which is from Dune. And something that was very strange to me as a child is that she explicitly states that she draws her power from Cinnamon and she has cinnamon minds. And I'm like, that's kind of random. Why would it be Cinnamon? Must. [00:29:50] Speaker A: Must. [00:29:50] Speaker C: But that's a reference to spice vines from Dune. [00:29:53] Speaker A: Yes. [00:29:55] Speaker C: And it's a quite a good episode, which. It doesn't make a lot of sense, though, because they say it's like a thousand years in the future, but, like, Billy's dad and Irwin are alive, so it's like. Yeah, it's kind of weird, but whatever. [00:30:05] Speaker A: I think they're supposed to be, like, descendants that just look like them. It makes no sense. [00:30:09] Speaker D: But I think that the show just doesn't care. [00:30:11] Speaker A: The show doesn't give. [00:30:12] Speaker C: Yeah, the show doesn't care. Justin is right. The show didn't care, I think. Or they did carry it. Just didn't think it would matter, I think. Which should be fair. He doesn't. [00:30:19] Speaker A: Yeah. I think the show is very much like a precursor to Tim and Eric and that, like, it. It doesn't just not care. It kind of hates you for caring in the first place. Like, it's anti intellectual and will give you the finger if you get too invested in its plot, which is hard to do because, like, it's hard not to do because I find the build up to these. To its jokes to be pretty clever. You know, there's the episode with the Black Knight. That's one of my favorites. The Curse of the Black Knight, where they're at the Ren. The Ren Faire, the Renaissance Fair, and Billy has some embarrassing night costume made out of a cereal box. And he's all jealous of Erwin because Erwin has this, like, super cool night costume. And he's like, graham, I want a costume. I want a cool costume. So he's like, oh, fine. He takes his scythe and he uses its magic to, like, open a fissure in the earth, and an evil castle pops up. And then a dragon comes out and it breathes mystical fire at Billy. And then Billy's like, you know, he's in a suit of armor and he's like, oh, it's so Cool. But then he can't take it off because he immediately has to go to the bathroom because it's Billy and Mandy. Yeah. And yeah, by the end of the episode, he gets it off after going through a ton of trouble. He has to beat someone at a game. And of course he can't beat anyone in any games because he's Billy and he's incompetent. So when he finally, finally, finally, finally gets the suit off on a technicality, he doesn't have to go to the bathroom anymore. And the episode just abruptly ends and you're like, huh? You just left me holding the bag here, bro. [00:31:51] Speaker C: Like, well, it's like an old school Looney Tunes. Like you don't really care too much about what happens to Bugs Bun, your Elm or fud. Like when the cartoon ends, you know, it's a cartoon and that's between a cartoon and an animated series. And Billy and Mandy is most certainly a cartoon. [00:32:06] Speaker A: That's true. And I think that that's an important, That's a great, that's a great point to transition to my next point because, like, the 90s were a pretty interesting time for cartoons, right? 2001 in particular was, I think, and Justin can correct me if I have the date wrong, but I, I find it to be kind of a transitional time for animation. You know, the cartoons of the 90s were rebellious and grungy. Mid to late 90s anyway. And they were beginning to lose their, their edge. Right? The innuendo littered psychedelia of Rocko's modern life. And Ren and Stimpy were giving way to SpongeBob and Tamer Fair. Like Ed, Edd and Eddie. Right? [00:32:51] Speaker D: Ed and Eddie's not really tame. [00:32:53] Speaker C: Okay, you're guessing on Ed and Eddie, my man. You're guessing Ed, Edd and Eddie. Nobody disses Ed and Eddie. [00:32:57] Speaker A: There's no chokey chicken in Ed, Edd and Eddie. [00:33:00] Speaker B: It's still a good show. [00:33:02] Speaker D: Porn Hy jokes. [00:33:04] Speaker A: I didn't say it was bad. I just said it was losing its edge. [00:33:07] Speaker C: Yeah, that show can be edgy. They beat the sh out of each other. [00:33:10] Speaker D: There's a whole episode where they're trying to. Where they're trying to hide Eddie's pornos cuz his mom wants to throw him out. [00:33:15] Speaker A: I mean, that's fine. [00:33:16] Speaker B: There's also that episode where the Caner sisters have them like trapped in that house. [00:33:25] Speaker D: And they sexually assault them. [00:33:27] Speaker A: Oh gosh. [00:33:28] Speaker D: And Eddie's like, be gentle, I'm a minor. [00:33:32] Speaker A: All right, all right, all right. I, I Will retract that statement. It. When, when, when did Nettie air? [00:33:38] Speaker D: Like 99. [00:33:40] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, when it first came out. [00:33:41] Speaker C: But it was. It was airing well into like 2010s. [00:33:44] Speaker D: It didn't end until like 2007, 2008. That's when the movie came out. [00:33:47] Speaker C: And they were still playing episodes long till, like 2010. [00:33:50] Speaker A: Okay, okay, that's interesting. That's cool. Well, okay, we're gonna leave Ed and Eddie aside then, because honestly, it is part of this era regardless, no matter how I want to look at it. But basically the 90s were an interesting time though, right? Ren and Stimpy is the quintessential 90s cartoon. You guys have all seen it, right? [00:34:14] Speaker C: Vaguely. [00:34:15] Speaker A: Okay, Erica, you're right. [00:34:17] Speaker B: I watched a lot of reruns when I was growing up because my siblings were born in the later part of the 80s, so they grew up watching it. And like, my friend's parents were the same age as my siblings, so they watched it. [00:34:33] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, well, I mean, hey, I mean, it's a show that just had a callous disregard for decency. Sorry, callous regard for decency. And anarchic nihilism that typified all the art made in the wake of Kurt Cobain's Nirvanas. Smells Like Teen Spirit. I mean, everything was world weary, grungy, brutal, and, you know, like that horrific violence that would have made Mel Blanc and all his Looney Tunes gasp in shock. Including, but not limited to dismemberment and grisly death. Bodily fluids, parasitic infections, and the creepy insinuation of subtle sexuality all contributed to a tone of gruesome, savage insanity in Ren and Stimpy. Ren was a tiny, short tempered chihuahua and his roommate Stimpy was a well fat, very stupid cat. The show was utterly disgusting. It made me little Dan, sick to his stomach when I was a child. I hated it. There were people who loved it. [00:35:42] Speaker D: I loved it. [00:35:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Justin was a big fan of fucking Ren and Stimpy. [00:35:46] Speaker D: I watched it. I remember. Oh, my God. I don't understand, like, how my mom let me watch that show when I was like three or four. I just. I have very fuzzy memories of people coming in while I was sitting and watching Ren and Stimpy. And they just go, you're watching that show, it's stupid. And I'd giggle and say, that's why I like it. [00:36:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it is. It is gruesome. It is. It is up. It's also the prototype for this type of show. You know, it's anti intellectual in the same way that something like Aqua Teen Hunger Force or Tim and Eric is. It was. It was a watershed moment for animation. There were clones and copycats filling the airwaves from every fucking studio. There was two stupid dogs fucking cow and chicken. And they weren't the same exact show, but they were very similar. They had the same surrealism, the same goofiness, the same gross out humor. You know, Justin, you're a big fan of Cowan Chicken, aren't you? [00:36:41] Speaker D: Yeah, I just like every single cartoon chair you're gonna mention. I'm like literally the millennial version of an iPad, kid. I just sat in front of the TV all day and watched all these cartoons. Cow and Chicken was weird. It had the red guy. He'd always roll around. He'd always do weird sexually suggestive things. Sometimes he'd dress in drag. He'd walk on his butt. [00:37:03] Speaker B: He was a bad boy. [00:37:06] Speaker C: If I could talk about Ren and Stippy for a moment. [00:37:12] Speaker A: What, Erica, what'd you say? [00:37:17] Speaker B: I was saying I think the. The red man is a baboon. He was nightmare inducing for me as a child. I also love cow and chicken. [00:37:27] Speaker D: Oh, no, that's IR Baboon. That's a completely different character. [00:37:30] Speaker A: Yeah, the red guy was a little devil guy with a pointed tail. Erica, you're frozen, bro. I can't even hear you. [00:37:40] Speaker B: Oh, that's no bueno. [00:37:42] Speaker A: Oh, you're muted. [00:37:43] Speaker B: I have been muting myself on and off. [00:37:47] Speaker A: Yeah, probably a good idea. Here, try. Try turning off your. Your. Your video. It might be eating your bandwidth. [00:37:58] Speaker B: Is that any better. [00:38:03] Speaker A: Man? I can hear you. Well, I'm saying, like, do you want to turn off your video and try talking? [00:38:10] Speaker B: Does that help? [00:38:12] Speaker A: Yeah, why don't you maybe. Why don't you try. Why don't you say what you. What you said? Why don't you make your point that you made before? [00:38:19] Speaker B: I was just saying that I was traumatized by the baboon man as a child. [00:38:28] Speaker A: Okay, you were traumatized by IR Baboon? [00:38:31] Speaker B: Yes. There were many characters in Cow and Chicken that were odd, and that was the stuff of nightmares for me as a kid. [00:38:44] Speaker A: Yeah, it was pretty weird. It was pretty. Yeah, IR Baboon was pretty weird. That was their middle cartoon. Yeah, the red guy caused a lot of outrage because it was the devil on a cartoon show. Jack, what did you want to say about Ren and Stimpy? [00:38:57] Speaker C: I was gonna say I want to talk about cow and chicken because that actually influenced Billy and Mandy, because the initial idea of that Maxwell Adams had was he liked the idea of a little girl befriending, like, either the grim reaper or the devil. And they decided to go with the grim reaper because Cartoon Network told him after Cowan Chicken, we will never depict the devil ever again. And they still haven't, I think, to my. From what I understand. So you can thank Cow and Chicken that it was the grim adventures of Billy and Mandy. [00:39:26] Speaker A: Justin. Justin, repeat that. [00:39:28] Speaker D: Stachi's a Beelzebub. Just think from Adventure Time. [00:39:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:33] Speaker D: Dressed like the devil. [00:39:34] Speaker A: Yep. Are there no other. Yeah, that's a good point, Jack. Are there no other devils on Cartoon Network cartoons? [00:39:40] Speaker C: Well, in Adventure Time, we have Hunts and Abadir, but he's not called the devil. Right. And then Trigon, who is basically the devil, but he's like a comic book character. So you got a little leeway with that. [00:39:53] Speaker A: Yeah, well, Trigon, I mean, that's. That's an older character, though. That's a DC comic. [00:39:58] Speaker C: Yeah, they got. They got some leeway with that, but I also think. So he did like the actual, like, literal capital D. Devil. [00:40:04] Speaker A: Yeah. He's not Satan. Yeah. He's not a little red man with horns. Yeah. I want a pitchfork. Yeah, yeah. Hunts and Aberdeer. Yeah, he's like a devil. It's like, how marvel. Like, they. They sometimes have a Satan, but it's usually Mephisto. Just cause. [00:40:22] Speaker C: Yeah, there's also him from the Powerpuff Girls, but I think he's also got some leeway because he's not called the devil and he's kind of like a more of a, you know, what would you call it? Like, he's a carryover character from, like, before Cowan. Chicken. So he gets a pass too? [00:40:38] Speaker A: Yes, yes. He's a legacy character. Okay. Did you want to say something else about Ren and Stimpy? By the way? You had something you wanted to say when I mentioned cow and chicken? [00:40:49] Speaker C: Well, you know, I don't have a lot of strong feelings about Rin and stupidity one way or the other. It wasn't my brand of humor. In my mind, what makes good gross out humor is write what you think is funny, and if it happens to be gross, then so be it. And I feel like Ren and Snippy was just more often make something gross and the kids will like it, which, you know, fair enough. But I feel like Billy and Mandy did gross out a little bit better. Billy. Billy and Mandy is a lot more like. It's kind of like the Powerpuff Girls in the sense of, like, it wasn't really a show made by people guessing what kids wanted to see. It was really a show made by what they wanted to see. It was what they wanted to make a show about, and kids just happened to like it. [00:41:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I tend to agree with that. Ren and Stimpy was like, all gross out and all ridiculous insanity. Whereas, like, Billy and Mandy would often build its, its, its. Its goofiness into its story, you know, like, yeah, a lot, A lot of times it's anti intellectual. Like, there's the. And it ends in a kind of anticlimactic way by design. Like the episode with the genie. It ends with, like, Mandy wishing everyone in the world was gone. And that's just it. Like, she's just all alone and can finally just watch TV without Billy giggling in her ear, you know, so. [00:42:06] Speaker C: Yeah, but like, the episode said something like, it almost makes you feel like she's gonna, like, feel bad about wishing for that. But it's like, nope, she doesn't feel bad. [00:42:15] Speaker A: Right? I mean, she might feel bad eventually because the show does hint, and it does show pretty explicitly at times that Mandy does like Billy. She does like him. Grim. Maybe she has an utter contempt for, but Billy, I think she likes him. Not just because he's an idiot and can't threaten her. You know, in the movie, there's. There's the bit where, where Billy doesn't come up from the water and she's kind of like, billy's always okay. And she almost cries. And then Billy breaks the water and goes, I survived by breathing my farts. It's, you know, perfectly executed, goofy, bad joke. So, yeah, Billy and Mandy, I mean, again, it aired in 2000. That was, that was a time of experimentation. Justin. Is that, Is that a fair thing to say? [00:43:05] Speaker D: That is a fair thing to say. [00:43:07] Speaker C: Could I say something about this era of animation? [00:43:10] Speaker A: Yes, you May. [00:43:11] Speaker C: If the 2010s was the Renaissance for children's animation, the 2000s was the fucking dark ages. Because let me tell you something, if you're a little kid, because I was a little kid, you guys weren't exactly little when the 2000s coming around, right? I was a little. I was a little boy. Let me tell you something. The avalanche of slash animation shit that was imported from Canada and France was mind boggling. And now people are gonna be like, oh, there's some good shows. Like, there were some good shows. Teen Titans, there was. Samurai Jack was still airing. Powerpuff Girls was still airing. We got this show, of course, Flapjack Chowder. But let me tell you that there's Something we have to understand here. Survivors bias. We don't remember the horrible, forgettable pieces of shit that were just shoveled at us non stop. And to top it all off, to end that horrible fucking decade with what did we get? Seeing real, hey, let's abandon cartoons and do live action shit. So let me tell you something. That's a horrible fucking time to be a kid. And it's even worse to be a kid of a divorcing parent. I'm trying to drown away my sorrows with cartoons and you want to give me reality that. [00:44:18] Speaker A: Wow, Are you talking about, like, Johnny Test? Like, like what kind of shows? [00:44:23] Speaker C: Test was a shit stain on that era of cartoons and pretty much indicative of why cartoons sucked in. But I'm talking about those horrible live action shows. They tried to, like, pedal to us, like, destroy, build, destroy. Or dude, what would happen? [00:44:36] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, okay. [00:44:38] Speaker C: Yeah. They're so horrible, you don't want to remember them. But I remember them. [00:44:43] Speaker B: They're garbage. You're right. You just kind of push them to the back of your brain. [00:44:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:44:51] Speaker C: I'm talking like Kung Fu Skunk. [00:44:53] Speaker A: The is. [00:44:55] Speaker C: Exactly. You don't remember because it's horrible. [00:44:57] Speaker D: Remember? I remember Skunk too. [00:44:59] Speaker C: Yeah, you got the title, right. Thanks. [00:45:03] Speaker A: Congratulations, Justin. You win the Wolf Man. [00:45:09] Speaker C: To put it all in the words. What I'm saying is Billy and Mandy was not a great show, but compared to the things that were coming out, it was a fucking oasis in the desert. [00:45:17] Speaker A: You know, when I think of this era, I'm thinking about, like, Adult Swim. Like, space goes coast to coast, you know, like the Brak Show. Like. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what else was really on the air, you know, like. Yeah, there was, like, Invaders in. But a lot of the good Nickelodeon shows, like Rocco Abriel, Monsters, Rugrats was wrapping up. I mean, you know, they were gone. Fucking angry beavers. Justin. When did that die? 2000, I think. [00:45:45] Speaker D: Like 98, 99. [00:45:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And like Billy and Mandy is. Is part of that. It has a style. I think people call it Black line style, right, Justin? [00:45:58] Speaker D: I think so, yeah. [00:45:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Like the Powerpuff Girls, Dexter's Lab kind. [00:46:02] Speaker C: Of cell shaving style. [00:46:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, kind of the old way of making cartoons, if you will, you know. What's the other one, Donnie? Bravo. Classic. Classic. Classic. Yeah. These are all shows with a very simple premise and they innovate on it in incredible ways, you know. What's the other one? Foster's Home for Wayward Pets. [00:46:22] Speaker D: You said that Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends. [00:46:24] Speaker A: Oh, my God. [00:46:25] Speaker C: That has no outlines, I think. [00:46:26] Speaker D: Yeah, that's very thin outlines. [00:46:29] Speaker A: Right. But it has that same sensibility. [00:46:31] Speaker C: It's very blocky. [00:46:33] Speaker A: Very blocky. [00:46:34] Speaker C: Characters are made of simple shapes. [00:46:36] Speaker A: Right. And the humor is very episodic and not random. I don't want to say random, but it's very silly. You know, I think another thing about Billy and Mandy is that it is a show. It's one of the first shows of the Internet age. Right. Erica, are you okay? No, you're cool. You're cool. I thought you froze. That's okay. It is one of the first shows of the Internet age. Invader Zim and Billy and Mandy have that lol. So random humor. Right. And Justin said something really interesting the other day about it when he was a kid. He saw it as a counterpart to south park and Family Guy because, I mean. Do you want to elaborate on that? [00:47:23] Speaker D: I'll elaborate on it. So basically, the most interesting thing I can say about Billy and Mandy is that its sensibility, it's. I want to say it's like. It's nihilistic edge. It's blackness didn't appeal to adults. The. This is a show. This is one of the only shows with that kind of sensibility that only appealed to kids. Only kids watched it. It didn't have an adult following. If I did not watch it as a kid, I would not watch it as an adult. I would not have the same feelings about it. And the weird thing about it is that this show in of itself was literally made to, I want to say, target middle schoolers, which I was at the time. And at that time, I was watching this show, and I was watching South Park. I was watching Family Guy, I was watching Futurama. They were all competing for my time, Those three shows skewed towards. Tried to have, like, more of. Like. Tried to skew more towards an adult audience, but had a large following amongst children because it appealed to them. It had the same kind of, I want to say, like, edge to it. The same kind of like, fuck society. The same kind of like, weird, random humor, the same kind of just, like, nihilism that Billy and Mandy had, in spite of Billy and Mandy only appealing to children. So when I was a kid, like, my friends and I would quote south park or Family Guy or Billy and Mandy at each other in, like, the same breath, essentially, like, they were all this. At the time. They were all the same kind of show to me. [00:49:12] Speaker A: Interesting. Yeah. I think that that is. That is a key Thing. I mean, I noted here in my notes that like, a lot of the cartoons that were popping up around this time, like the Fairly Odd Parents, Invader Zim and you know, to a degree, I mean, Billy and Mandy. I mean, Justin says it was aimed squarely at middle schoolers, but a lot of them were looking at the adult audience. You know, I personally love villain Mandy. I think Jeff the spider is really funny. I. I find a lot of this to be hysterical. I didn't really watch it growing up. Like, I. It was on TV and I ignored it. But, like, you know, like, I. It was on TV and I didn't really watch it. You know, I find all the, the Harry Potter spoofs to be brilliant. You know, Toad Blot, School of whatever with Nigel Planter, like the chamber pot of secrets. Yeah, Nigel Planter is stalk. Is. He's. He's. He's Harry Potter. He wears the stupid round glasses and has a goofy looking scar on his forehead. [00:50:15] Speaker C: He's an entitled Gary. Stu. [00:50:17] Speaker A: He's an entitled Gary. He really is. [00:50:19] Speaker C: Who takes credit for. That's not his. [00:50:21] Speaker A: He literally does. Yeah, yeah, Mandy helps. What does she do? [00:50:25] Speaker C: She basically, like, sabotages the other houses. And the entire time you're just like, guys, I thwarted the other house. So eventually the. The principal shows or like, the headmaster showed the. The party. And man, he's like, oh, yeah, tell me about how you planted all those, like, pranks on the other house. Like, oh, yeah, I did this, this and the other thing. And the toad blood's like, you, Nigel Planter are expelled. And he's not just expelled. He's like, sent to a coliseum to fight a cyclops. [00:50:52] Speaker A: Yes, it's pretty amazing. [00:50:54] Speaker C: And she's like, no, wait, it was Manny's idea. It was Manny's ideas. [00:50:57] Speaker A: Yeah, he pays the price for her crime. The sequel episode is one of the first episodes I saw. And it's amazing because it comes across like someone didn't know or care about Harry Potter at all, but thought it was stupid nonetheless. Like, Nigel Planter is being stalked by a weird little creature called Lord Moldy Butt. And whenever you say his name, glass breaks, the house falls apart. Horrible things just happen. It's like, stop saying his name. So, like, he just shows up and goes, stay out of the chamber pot of secrets and punches him in the face and runs away. And, like, the payoff is, of course, just stupid and a waste of everyone's time. But, like, yeah, like, that's the episode. Like, they go around doing things and Lord Moldy but just shows up and punches him in the face, you know, Nigel Planter. [00:51:50] Speaker C: So I think it's kind of like a dig on how, like, bizarre it is that Voldemort has such intense beef with a kid he's never met. And it basically poses no threat to him, apart from the fact that the universe just decides that he's, like, the key to, like, obliterating his powers, which is, by the way, you know, Voldemort. [00:52:08] Speaker A: Could have just did his thing, and not with Harry Potter at all. Like, I mean, I guess that's what he did. [00:52:14] Speaker C: He's almost like an Eobard Don, where, like, he just has beef with him for no reason, but, like, it doesn't make any sense because he doesn't even know him. He beats him as a baby. What the f. Whatever. That's a whole other thing. You just referenced the Flash defeated by the coughing baby. [00:52:32] Speaker A: Yeah, it was me, Flash. I was there your whole life. [00:52:37] Speaker C: It was me, Barry. Remember when you were making out with your first girlfriend and she came right as she touched your leg? It was me, Barry. I jerked you off at super speed so it seemed like you nutted at just a woman's touch. Kyle went out there. [00:52:51] Speaker D: Touch. [00:52:52] Speaker A: Remember when you tripped and broke your nose to have to go to the hospital for eight hours? It was me, Barry. I pushed you. [00:52:58] Speaker C: Remember when you're trying to perfect your casserole and it overcooked just at the right moment? It was me, Barry. I overcooked your casserole. [00:53:07] Speaker A: Erica, do you know what we're talking about? [00:53:11] Speaker B: No, but I'm here for the vibes. [00:53:16] Speaker A: Well, there's. There's a character called the Reverse Flash. The Flash only has bad villains, like, really bad villains. And of course, his best villain is just him, but yellow. Yeah. So there's a really. I guess it's old now. There's a. It's. Guess it's. It's at least 10 years old now. There's an old comic book where the Reverse Flash. So the Flash can run so fast that he can. He has time travel powers? Like, I don't really know how it works. It doesn't matter. It's a comic book. The Reverse Flash, of course, can also time travel. So he just reveals the Flash that he's been time traveling the Flash his entire life, and every bad thing that ever happened to him was him. [00:53:59] Speaker C: It's kind of like that episode of Invader Zim, which is my favorite episode, by the way, where Zim does the exact same thing, and it makes dimming Like a crazy cyborg. [00:54:07] Speaker A: He's just throwing. [00:54:14] Speaker C: You know, Reverse Flash is a good villain. He's like Syndrome from the Incredibles, but, like, a little more crazy. [00:54:20] Speaker A: Is. Is that a good villain? I don't know. [00:54:22] Speaker C: Syndrome is a great villain. [00:54:24] Speaker A: He was a great villain. Oh, my gosh. Billy and Mandy, the Flash. I. I just got side. I can't believe you went to Earbart Thon. What were we talking about? [00:54:35] Speaker C: We were talking about movie spoofs and how Billy Mandy did him pretty well. [00:54:40] Speaker A: Yeah, Billy Mandy is pretty good at that. [00:54:42] Speaker C: My favorite spoof they ever did. I mean, they have tons of spoofs, but my favorite was they got Pinhead and he's got bowling pins in his head. [00:54:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:49] Speaker C: Or even they would just have, like, background stuff. Like, they could be playing a video game, and it's called President Evil. [00:54:55] Speaker A: Yes. [00:54:57] Speaker C: Or my favorite sidekick. Like, one of my favorite side characters is a Hostelgado, which is a combination of Bruce Campbell's Ash William, Ash Williams, and Snake from Escape New York. [00:55:08] Speaker A: Yeah. It's a shame that Adrian's not here, because she loves Bruce Campbell. You know, Evil Dead's one of my favorite. [00:55:13] Speaker C: Who doesn't love Bruce Campbell? [00:55:15] Speaker A: Who doesn't love Bruce Campbell? [00:55:16] Speaker C: And I think that's also something you have to talk about because Billy and Mandy has not really a rogues gallery, but a great revolving door of some side characters. You've already mentioned Jeff the Spider, which is such a mean, spirited concept for a character. I love it, but. And you know, Hostelgado, played by Batman Brave and the bold actor. You know, I don't remember his name. He played Batman. He's like a monster hunter. [00:55:39] Speaker A: I love that show, by the way. [00:55:41] Speaker C: But my favorite side character that was ever on the show was Dracula, who is a cranky black man who always. He's obviously, that's a reference to the movie Blackula, but he's all. He talks like Mr. T. I love him. And played by Philomar Dracula. Don't suck blood. He's scraping lick. [00:56:04] Speaker A: Scraping lick. [00:56:05] Speaker B: He's scraping lick. [00:56:08] Speaker C: He. He and Van Helsing had a falling out, and they used to work at the Teddy Bear Factory together. [00:56:14] Speaker A: Ridiculous. [00:56:15] Speaker C: Designing custom made teddy bears. Like, I love how the show was. Just seems like almost like ad libs in a way. [00:56:22] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. It is very, like, serendipitous. He worked at the Teddy Bear Factory. Yeah. Speaking of spoofs, I really like the Hokey Monsters episode. Like, it's funny because Pokemon is this massive franchise. But, like, when I was little, it was mostly just the cards. Like, yeah, I played the video game, but I was. I was a dweeb, you know, I sucked. I also went to yeshiva, so whatever. But everyone had the cards. They were everywhere. They were like chickenpox. Everyone had them, you know, and like in the Hokimon's episode. No, it's not Hokimons, it's hokey monsters. Let's see. Yeah, I wrote down here, there's a one eyed cat, like the Zim Chihuahua. I. I think that's just something that's in the episode. Just a horrifying little cat with one eye. Mandy's monster. Okay, so anyway, Billy is showing Grim, and Grim isn't impressed, so he turns it into a real monster. And he's like, don't show anybody Billy. And, well, Billy of course shows everyone his real hokiemon, because why wouldn't he? And then eventually every kid in the world is clamoring for their own Hokie monster. And. And Grim is just misusing his power and giving them all monsters. And there's just carnage in the streets as little kids suddenly have their own Pokemans and are having like awful gang fights with each other. And the monsters are just killing each other and evolving into bigger forms. And Mandy, clearly not a big fan of hokey monsters, goes to Grim and says, here, Grim, I want you to make this into a real Pokemon. And it's just like, it's a crude drawing she made. And he's like, okay. She's like, its power is that it will turn all the other monsters into toast. So he makes it into a real monster and it literally turns them into toast and eats them. And like the gag as there is, Mandy's laying in bed with the monster and she's like, I told you no toast in the bed. And he's like, yeah. So let's see Mandy's monster tournament. The toast. Jeff the Spider. Gosh, I think Jeff the Spider might be one of my favorites, but I don't know. Erica, do you have a favorite, like, side character? [00:58:44] Speaker B: Honestly, I think mine is also probably Drac because he's so sassy. And as a person of color, it's not a lot of representation we get in media. So black sassy Drac was my favorite thing in the world. And I do feel like he had more than his fair share of development in my personality when I was a toddler. [00:59:09] Speaker A: Erica, Erica, you are roboting horrifically. I'm so sorry. [00:59:13] Speaker B: I'm sorry. [00:59:17] Speaker A: I mean, it's not your fault. So here's the thing. You're making a. I don't know. You're making a great point. And, like, when you robot like that, I have to just pray that magic audio fixes it later. Do you want to kill your. Your. Your. Your. Your camera and try talking about Dracula? [00:59:38] Speaker B: I got you. But, yeah, for a person of color, is it any better now? As a person of color, having that representation was extra nice. [00:59:51] Speaker A: Even. [00:59:51] Speaker B: Even if it was portrayed as something that was a little more entertaining and humorous, it was still important to see. [01:00:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. By the way, that was great. By the way, that sucks that your video is killing it. Yeah, I did want to talk about that, because that was something I noted. The other black character in this show is Erwin, and he's, like, played as a dork. Right. On the Fairly Oddparents, there's a similar character. There's aj, and he's, like, the smart one. He's a side character. [01:00:29] Speaker C: A smart character and a dork character on exactly the same thing. [01:00:32] Speaker A: I think AJ's a dweeb, right? [01:00:34] Speaker C: No, no. Balajeet was the dweeb. [01:00:38] Speaker D: AJ's a bit of a nerd. But it's funny because there's, like, a lot of things that I would consider. Consider carbon copies of Erwin, like if. Because you guys are adults, I'm, like, the only adult who still really. I feel like I'm the only adult who still just regularly watches random cartoons all the time. [01:00:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:57] Speaker D: But Clyde, who's, Lincoln's, like, best friend in the Loud House, is also the same kind of, like, dwiebish black character. And then there's like, another character named Remy from a Disney Channel show called Big City Greens, who literally just looks like Erwin and is also the same kind of black dweeby character. [01:01:19] Speaker C: In the 2000s era, in particular, there is a very common trend of white generic protagonist, his black friend, and his white love interest. And we saw that in Danny Phantom. We saw it. And I think this show, basically, even though they're not love interest, we saw it in the Matrix, Percy Jackson. [01:01:41] Speaker A: Oh, you're right. [01:01:42] Speaker D: Was Grover played by. Was Grover played by a black actor in the movie? I never saw it. [01:01:47] Speaker C: Yes, he was. So that was very common in the 2000s. Now, I don't think a nerdy character is necessarily a smart character, but you are kind of right. AJ is more smart, and I think Irwin is not really smart. He's just more of a dorky character. [01:02:01] Speaker A: He's a dork. Yeah. [01:02:03] Speaker C: Yeah. AJ wasn't really a dork, though. He was just kind of like a chill Guy. He was really smart. [01:02:07] Speaker A: Tucker was definitely. He was a. He was really smart and he was a dork. [01:02:11] Speaker C: Yeah, he was definitely up, you know? Yeah. [01:02:13] Speaker A: Yeah. It's hard because I. I love Tucker. He's a great character. Erica, do you like Danny Phantom? [01:02:19] Speaker B: I love Danny Phantom. Before I get too far into that, though, I do also feel like representations like Irwin are equally important, though, like, as someone in the black community, because, again, there's not a lot of representation. And, like, leading up to this point, the representation that there was wasn't always the best. So seeing something that's less of a caricature and more like, yeah, you can have diverse black people that don't behave a certain way. Maybe they're a little goofy, maybe they're a little silly. Is refreshing. I'll take someone goofy over, like, needlessly violent any day. [01:03:01] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, I was gonna ask you that if you felt like moving on from embarrassing stuff, like all the Whoopi Goldberg characters where she's a sassy, you know, bad motherfucker all the time who always, you know, has the funny thing to say. Like, if that was, like, a. A positive progression I saw, you know, I think so. [01:03:24] Speaker B: Because everybody's so multifaceted. Being able to see something that's like, yes, you do have the sassy black woman, but you can also have, like, a dorky black man or a really shy and timid black woman is great. [01:03:40] Speaker A: I think it becomes a problem when every black character is. It defaults to dorky nerd. Shy, smart. [01:03:52] Speaker C: You gotta imagine it's almost like a reactionary thing to Cabinet. [01:03:56] Speaker A: Yes. And here's the thing. I think we are in a better place. There are a lot of cool shows. There's. There's a. There's a Marvel cartoon show. It's on Disney plus. Probably airs on some Disney Channel. I don't know. I don't have cable. It's called Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur, and it's about a cute, sweet little girl who is a genius. That's her superpower. She can make machines and, I don't know, Justin watches it. She's best friends with a red dinosaur named Devil Dinosaur, who's a classic Jack Kirby character. And, yeah, I mean, you know, she has this show, has a black cast and, like, there's the Beyonder, who's all powerful and, like, sings and is super sassy and ridiculous, but then she's super kind and thoughtful and immature because she's a little girl, which is the kind of diversity you wouldn't have seen in, like, this. That era, it's so sad that, like, a well rounded character is seen as, like, some kind of groundbreaking thing by me. But there we are. What's that show? Kipo and the Wonder Beasts. [01:05:01] Speaker D: There's Kipo and the Age of Wonder Beasts. [01:05:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Is that. Is that like a black cast? I don't know. [01:05:06] Speaker D: Well, Kipo's half black, half Korean. [01:05:08] Speaker A: Oh, never mind. [01:05:09] Speaker C: And then, whatever. [01:05:10] Speaker D: Then the two friends she meets on her journey. Becky Benson is like a dorky black gay teenager who travels around, like, with this, like, bug who's always trying to sell him out. And then there's Wolf, who kind of, like, lives, who's also a little black girl, but she's lived by herself for so long, she found it. She, like, finds it really hard to trust other people and stuff like that, especially as you, like, find out later on in the show. And she was literally raised by wolves, like, talking wolves. And they only adopted her because they were going to do a ritual where they were going to have one of the other wolves they raised with her as a sister, like, kill her in a hunt and she kills the dad and wears his pelt. Yeah, it's a pretty good show. [01:06:03] Speaker A: That's cool. So, I don't know, Erica, I don't know if you watch as many cartoons as me and Justin. Do you, but do you think that, like, cartoons are more diverse now? [01:06:13] Speaker B: I mean, I feel like yes and no. I feel like there's been great strides that have been made in showing different kinds of diversity, but it's also not as extensive as it could be, if that makes sense. Like, we've made those strides, but a lot of what we're still seeing can be very caricature, like, or very muted representations of these cultures. I would really like to see something like a Boondocks reboot or more stuff like that coming into play nowadays. [01:06:54] Speaker A: Interesting. Yeah, it's hard, too, because, like, stuff like the Boondocks, that was defined by its strong writing team, which they. They pretty much lost in their last season, you know, so. Yeah. Yeah. We don't even get stuff like the Proud Family. I don't know. Yeah, I think you're right. It's like when. When a show like that gets made, it's notable for being that, but then there isn't, like, a bunch that follow in its wake, I guess. [01:07:21] Speaker B: I think the Proud Family is a good example of that, too. [01:07:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:29] Speaker D: Crack of the Creek just ended. [01:07:31] Speaker A: Speaking of. Yeah. Shows like that. [01:07:33] Speaker D: Yeah, that's a really good show. [01:07:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Main character is a little black Kid who. [01:07:38] Speaker D: That's. [01:07:38] Speaker A: Hangs out at the creek. [01:07:39] Speaker D: Yeah, it's funny because he. He's also a dorky character, but he's not like any of the other dorky character. Dorky black characters I mentioned. It's a completely different thing. I don't know how else to explain it. [01:07:50] Speaker A: He's the least dorky character. So all the kids are weird. There's like a little girl who has a parakeet on her head and she talks like she's a medieval princess or something. There's lots of bizarre characters like that. And yeah, Craig's just like a normal kid. I wouldn't even call him dorky. [01:08:06] Speaker D: Everyone else calls him dorky in the show. [01:08:08] Speaker A: Oh, well, whatever. [01:08:09] Speaker D: Because he's obsessed with making maps. [01:08:11] Speaker A: Oh, well, everyone needs a hobby, right? Yeah. So, I mean, that being said, what's the character's name? Erwin. Yeah, I don't think that Irwin, however you want to look at Irwin, he's representative of the trend at the time. And yeah, I mean, things had moved on from where they were in the 90s and you know, they were a little bit more interesting, I guess. But it was still a trope. Oh boy. [01:08:46] Speaker C: So I personally, if we're talking about Irwin, I really would have liked to see the Under Fist show get off the ground where he would have been the protagonist. [01:08:54] Speaker A: Oh, is that real? [01:08:55] Speaker C: Is that true? It is true. That was gonna be. That was going to be a pilot for a show, but it just didn't. Didn't quite cut it because they were focusing on live action shows at that time. But it was. It would have been a great show. I think the idea of Erwin being, by the way, in the show. It's explained that Erwin's mom is a mummy and his grandfather's Dracula. That makes him one quarter vampire, one half mummy. And he has all. He's like Blade but with mummies now and it's fucking awesome. That would have been a great show, but I just couldn't get off the ground. [01:09:23] Speaker A: I agree. By the way, can we. Can we just like applaud Billy and Mandy for making Mummy? Like addressing the fact that mummies are monsters that are cool. Like, you know, I mean, did people. [01:09:35] Speaker C: Think mummies aren't cool? [01:09:37] Speaker A: Yeah, they say mummies suck, you know. [01:09:39] Speaker C: But after the Mummy, like with Brendan Fraser, it's unbelievable. [01:09:45] Speaker A: Boris Karloff played the mummy. You're gonna disrespect the game. Goddamn mummy. [01:09:49] Speaker C: I. I can understand disrespecting that one, cuz I don't like that movie very much. But like, after the. I mean, how can you disrespect mummies as a concept? Mummies are cool, dude. [01:09:56] Speaker A: I don't know. I don't know. You know, when I was writing my first Demon Land novel, I was like, well, there has to be a sequence where Splinter controls mummies, you know, or talks to mummies or fights mummies. Cuz I like mummies. [01:10:06] Speaker C: Or it's your mummy. [01:10:08] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. You know, mummy, Mummy knows best, you know, show me the mummy. Yeah. So I wrote down, like, several things that I just like from Billy and Mandy in general. You guys have. Who has. Do you guys have a favorite episode? Erica, what's your favorite episode? Do you have one? [01:10:25] Speaker B: I don't have a favorite, but one of the ones that comes to mind frequently is the one where, like, Grim finds love, so to say, finally. And the kids are just sitting there freaking out because it's not how he acts ever. [01:10:44] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a good one. I like that they do the little. They do the, you know, the dance sequence from Fiction. [01:10:55] Speaker B: The scene in the rain gets into. [01:10:57] Speaker A: The thing where Seed in the rain, her goth makeup runs. Yeah. And Mandy has her line, love is for the weak minded. [01:11:09] Speaker B: Oh, the episode with Pandora's box is also great. I can't remember everything that happens, but it was just so chaotic and, like, the actual presence of the box was fascinating to me because it brought in different lore that I got to learn more about. [01:11:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's a good one. I never saw it, but I hear it's good. But. Yeah, that's fair. So what happened? You don't remember what happens in the episode? Okay, that's fine. Yeah, no, that's. That. That's neat. Jack, do you have a favorite one? [01:11:49] Speaker C: You know, if you're not counting the movies? Because if we did count the movie movies, it would be Under Fist. Under Fist would be my favorite. But if we're not counting those, then a few ones come to mind. Call Cthulhu. The prank call of Cthulhu. Pardon me, is probably the one that stood out to most me in my re watches because I just love the Cthulhu mythos and I love how they make Cthulhu this kind of, like, boss type character. And he's, like, going. He's golfing and shit. And his business is converting people into Lovecraftian creatures with prank calls, of all things. And Billy's. Billy's becoming a monster, and everyone's becoming a monster. And they sing the song. You know, it looks like it's insville. For innsville. And it's a two potter, I think. So it just 22 minutes of just. Just jokes like that. They're great. Another one I really love was the other Halloween special they had Billy and Manny's Jacked Up Halloween, where they meet a character named Jack o' Lantern, played by Wayne Knight, who's great in the role. And he wants to cut off. He has a great backstory. I'm not gonna spoil it, but he wants to cut off groom's head and rule Halloween forever. [01:12:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Do watch that episode. It is amazing. [01:12:55] Speaker C: Yeah. Other than that, the movies are definitely great. And I'm trying to think there's, like, one more if I'm missing. Oh, the Christmas special where they fight vampires is also great. And really, any episode with Dracula. [01:13:10] Speaker A: Yeah, Dracula is amazing. I love Dracula. Justin, what's your favorite episode? [01:13:14] Speaker D: I have two. The one episode. One. My one favorite episode is the one with the clowns, and it's because it has that one quote in it that perfectly encapsulates the spirit of the show. And I just thought it was really funny as a kid where Billy hallucinates the guy and he goes and says, no, Billy, you can't accept people. The only way to fight hate is with even more hate. [01:13:38] Speaker A: Yes. [01:13:39] Speaker C: He says something to the effect of, billy, just because someone looks different from you or acts different from you doesn't mean you should be afraid of them. You should be angry at them. How dare they be different from you. What, my lifestyle is not good enough for me? [01:13:53] Speaker A: For you? [01:13:55] Speaker C: And it comes from his inner frat boy. [01:13:57] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:13:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:13:58] Speaker C: And that's how I learned. That's how I found out what frat boys are. [01:14:00] Speaker D: By the way, Billy, never let anyone tell you that, Billy, Manny's not educational. And then my other favorite episode is the one with Pinocchio, where Pinocchio, just in the middle of the episode, just goes to Billy. Well, Billy, I always wanted to be a real boy. And the only way I can be a real boy is if I eat the flesh of a real boy. Can I eat your flesh? [01:14:24] Speaker C: What kills me is, like, he's so, like, nonchalantly and, like, innocently asks, please, Billy, can I eat your flesh? This. This show when Courage the Cowardly Dog, I think, was the first introduction to dark humor for a lot of people in my generation. So I think it's kind of important in that sense. And I think you guys talked about it a little bit, but I think the reason it could be so dark was the fact that it was so cartoony. Rl Stine has a great quote where he says, writing horror for kids is different because when you write horror for adults, you have to make it seem real. But when you're writing for kids, you have to make it not real so they're not really afraid. And Billy and Mandy really does that because not only is it really cartoony, but the characters routinely break the fourth wall, which should be no surprise, because one of the writers is C.H. greenblatt, and he created the show Chowder, which is basically famous for breaking the fourth wall in new and exciting ways. So it's no surprise that, like, William Manny would be full of fourth wall breaks that remind the kids, like, hey, don't worry. This is a cartoon. No one's getting hurt. Don't take this seriously. [01:15:26] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. That's a really interesting point. I mean, like, the thing that defines like. Like Family Guy Chowder, this show, like the fourth wall break, and the acknowledgement that not only is this a cartoon, but it really doesn't matter. It makes me think about Space Ghost, coast to coast, the Brak show, and what's the other one? Harvey Birdman, attorney at law, where they would take. They would take old animation cells, and they were so crude that they could just make them do anything. And they, you know, they took these old Hanna Barbera cartoons, Space Ghost and Birdman, these shitty old superhero cartoons, and they. They made a show where Space Ghost is a talk show host, and he just says bizarre, random things to his. His guests. And his guests are usually real people who don't really understand what's happening. I mean, it's. I think it's scripted to a degree, but, like, still, like, the point is that it doesn't matter. It's stupid. Space Ghost will acknowledge the fact that he was once a superhero in the 60s. He literally says that, oh, yeah, I was a superhero in the 60s. Now I have a talk show. It makes no sense, but, like, you as the viewer, you know, he's not a real person. It's dumb. It's dumb for the sake of dumb. And it makes you wonder why you're even watching it in the first place. And I. And I think that this era, like, you know, was the point where people suddenly had access to tons of information. They could learn how movies were made, how cartoons were made. The Internet was everywhere. It was everything. And like, yeah, with that comes cynicism. Like, when you. When you have the answers to a lot of things that you didn't have before, you don't know everything, but you think you Do. And I think that that informs these types of shows. Aqua Teen Hunger Force, where the episodes don't even end. They just hit 10 minutes and stop. Like, you know, Billy and Mandy, like, let me look at my notes. I mean, you have this fucking crazy show where you have the Grim Reaper quoting John Donne poetry. You know, he tells the mom the. You know, ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee. But, like, it's also a show about boogies, you know, and, like, his stupid cat named Milkshakes. You're like, it's one of the stupidest shows I've watched. [01:17:38] Speaker C: But, yeah, you gotta imagine that that kind of cynicism kind of paved the way to the 2010s and the Renaissance of kids animation. Because then the reaction to that was more like, okay, what if we actually did take it seriously a little bit and we serialized some stuff and we had overarching, overarching narratives instead of just, you know, cut to 10 minutes, erased, reset button, back to square one, Right? [01:18:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And this. This type of thing does happen a lot. I mean, like, you know, Marvel during this era went through in the early 2000s, in 2001, I believe. Yeah. Because it was a reaction to the Patriot Act. I probably have the date wrong. Anyway, they had their Civil War comic, which led to, like, a good five years of, like, superheroes killing each other, fighting each other endlessly. Norman, Oz. [01:18:26] Speaker C: It led to one more day. [01:18:30] Speaker A: Yeah, we're not going to talk about Joe Quesada and his weird Spider man vanity project that ruined the book. It led to, you know, Dark Reign, which is where Norman Osborn was in charge of SHIELD and was hunting superheroes with the Thunderbolts as his marquee team. Not to be confused with the recent hit film, which has zero Thunderbolts characters in it. You know, Dark Reign, which was like, the. The Avengers are underground. They're being hunted by Venom and all this stuff. Venom and Norman Osborn and Bullseye and whatever. And then eventually Marvel was like, it's time for the heroic age. They brought the Avengers back together and started publishing fun comic books again. You know, I don't know what happened since then, but, you know, that being said, like, yeah, I think that's a good point, Jack. I'm probably gonna cut my. My nerd talk there, because it's totally off topic, but. Yeah, Jack, I think that's a really good point. We are in a pretty. I. I think we're hitting another stagnant point. But it's not because of anything culturally. I Mean, although our culture is pretty right now, it's more so that, like, networks are dying. You know, like, TV's going away. It's going away. Yeah. Like, we don't have cable. Erica, do you have cable? [01:19:50] Speaker B: I do not. I haven't had cable since I was, like, nine. [01:19:56] Speaker A: Yep. [01:19:57] Speaker C: I haven't had cable since Obama was in office. I think, literally, was that 40 years ago? [01:20:05] Speaker A: It feels like it was 40 years ago that Obama was in office. [01:20:07] Speaker C: Kind of anecdotal, but, like, my neighbor once asked me to dog sit for her, and she had cable and I could, like, watch her TV for a little bit. And it was very surreal seeing what cable had become because it was just kind of like, dead. Like, there was no enthusiasm anymore. Like, it was just show commercials that were, like, all soulless and then show, rinse, wash, repeat. And it was really kind of like, blah. [01:20:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:20:28] Speaker C: And it's so weird to think about, like, how we won't tolerate, like, 30 seconds of ads for, like, a YouTube video, but, like, we were just set through, like, three or four minutes of advertisements in the day. Back in the old days, there was. [01:20:39] Speaker A: A joke on Billy and Mandy where the witch is like, I see your future as well. I see you watching an eternity of commercials. Yeah, yeah, but that's. That's kind of my point. Like, I think the last, like, really great show that Cartoon Network has made is the Wonderful. I'm probably wrong, actually, because there's Invincible Fight Girl now. Speaking of black characters, by the way. But no, no, no. I'm thinking about my adventures with Superman. That show. Wait, is Invincible Fight Girl on Adult Swim? These two shows are for babies. They're great shows. They're well written, but there's nothing adult about them. But they're on Adult Swim because guess who watches cartoons now. Like, adults. [01:21:27] Speaker C: Adults. [01:21:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:21:28] Speaker C: Yeah, I guess. So. [01:21:30] Speaker A: Like, you tell me little kids don't want to sit and watch Superman, and I guess they're watching Skibidi Toilet now. I don't know. I don't know anything. [01:21:36] Speaker C: It was a lot easier for kids to watch cartoons when cable was a thing. And it was like, you know, their viewing experiences were, like, being tailored to by adults who knew better. It's really kind of irresponsible, even if you have, like, you know, like, parental setting, to like, leave a kid with just Netflix and, like, let them watch whatever. [01:21:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I don't know. You guys remember Elsa Gate? [01:22:01] Speaker C: I don't. I don't know what that is. [01:22:03] Speaker A: Okay. No, no. [01:22:06] Speaker D: Very disturbing. [01:22:07] Speaker A: Insert Image of pregnant spider man here. Okay, yeah, moving on. [01:22:12] Speaker B: So I know exactly what you're talking about now that you said that. [01:22:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Good old Elsa Gate. Good times. Well, all right. Anything else to say about Billy and Mandy? Do we want to talk about any specific episodes before we wrap up? [01:22:30] Speaker C: I don't necessarily want to talk about an episode, but I feel like we do have to talk about the. Not really the pilot, but, like, the. The prehistoric pilot, you would call it, the short film that it was based off Billy and the trepidation of the skull. [01:22:42] Speaker A: Yeah, I read about that on Wikipedia. [01:22:45] Speaker C: Yeah, it's. I. I kind of want to bring that up just to mention how, like, how different Mandy in particular has, like, changed over the show. Because in that. In that short, she's like, not really. She's not a precocious child. She's more like just psychotically, you know, like, she's like Bruce. She's like a really happy Wednesday from the Addams Family. She's, like, always smiling. She's, like, psychotic. Yeah. So it's very different from the Manny we know. And I also want to bring up how in those very first few episodes, the seven minute ones, Mandy is a lot more like a regular kid that just happens to be, like, really angry all the time. Whereas as the show progressed, she became more and more like a force of unbridled evil. And I think that's kind of interesting. [01:23:25] Speaker A: I wouldn't say she was angry. I would say she was taciturn and had a very. [01:23:30] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:23:30] Speaker A: Short fuse for. [01:23:32] Speaker C: And very morbid. [01:23:33] Speaker A: Very morbid. Yeah. [01:23:34] Speaker C: She acted a lot more like a kid. [01:23:37] Speaker A: She acted more like a kid. That's correct. Yeah. Well, there's the episode where Billy is sad because Mandy's not around. So grim is like, whatever, stop bothering me. He takes a gourd and he turns it into. He brings it to life. He makes it look like Mandy. [01:23:50] Speaker C: New Mandy. [01:23:51] Speaker A: It's so funny. So Billy, like, it's. It's. It's creeping Billy out, though, and he doesn't like it because it's acting like Mandy, and it's not Mandy. It's a gourd. And then, like, Mandy comes back at the end and she's like, who are you? And it's like, I'm Mandy. And she just hits the other side of the seesaw and sends it flying and it crashes down and fucking dies. [01:24:14] Speaker C: Instant death. [01:24:15] Speaker A: Instant death. It's crazy. I do like that Mandy has this, like, vague, like, I'm just gonna rule the world one day. It doesn't matter how it happens. Like, there's the Dune episode where she's the God emperor of Earth fueled by cinnamon. There's the kids next door crossing over, where she just casually takes over. Like, the kids next door is like, weird fascist apparatus. Because it's that easy to impersonate number one, because they're all stupid children. What else does she take over the world? Justin, isn't there another time? It doesn't. It doesn't matter. It doesn't fucking matter. Yeah, but, yeah, I'd agree. I have not seen trepidation of. The trepidation of the skull. Is it good, Jack? [01:25:00] Speaker C: I haven't seen the entire. I've basically seen the entire thing because it's so short, but, like, yeah, it's pretty. It's a one note kind of gag thing. But I think it's. It's kind of cool how dark it is. Like, Billy's like, oh, Mandy, why do you have that bandage? And she just happily tells him, like, oh, it's called trepidation. Because sometimes demons get in your head and if you drill a skull in your. A hole in your skull, they can come out. And Billy's like, oh, boy, can I have that? And she's like, sure. And he's like, oh, wait, hang on. Are you using a power drill? And he's like, yeah. He's like, oh, we better tell the kids at home that you shouldn't handle power tools when you're drilling a skull in your head. And he's like, yeah, right, because safety is important, kids. And she just drills into his skull. [01:25:40] Speaker A: That's amazing. [01:25:42] Speaker C: Yeah, it's pretty dark. [01:25:46] Speaker A: Erica, any closing thoughts about Billy and Mandy? [01:25:49] Speaker B: That is iconic, and I feel like I have to go and watch the trepidation of the skull now. [01:25:57] Speaker A: Trepidation. Yeah. Okay. Justin, any closing thoughts on Billy and Mandy? [01:26:05] Speaker D: I feel like part of, like, the most interesting thing about Billy and Mandy, as far as my closing thoughts go, is that it was influential in the fact that, like, a lot of different showrunners worked on Billy, Mandy, and went to create other shows. I know you mentioned before, C.H. greenblatt worked on Billy and Mandy and went on to make Chowder. I'm pretty sure the guy who made the marvelous Misadventures of Flapjack also worked on Billy and Mandy and got that show. And with Flapjack, that's where the guy who made Gradle Vanity Falls got his start. The guy who made Adventure Time got his start. The guy who made over the Garden Wall got his start. [01:26:47] Speaker C: Regular show, regular show. [01:26:49] Speaker D: JG Quintle also came from Flapjack. [01:26:51] Speaker C: Flapjack is a very important show in a lot of ways. [01:26:55] Speaker D: In a lot of ways. And Flapjack wouldn't be such an important show if it wasn't for Billy and Mandy. [01:26:59] Speaker A: There you go. There you go. [01:27:01] Speaker C: Maybe so you can trace the ancestral line somewhere. [01:27:04] Speaker D: Like, like, like, like. A lot of these things influence. Influence each other in ways you really wouldn't expect. And I will always appreciate Billy and Mandy for giving us adventure time and regular. [01:27:15] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, I think it's a great show. I think it's brilliant, and I think people should watch it. I'm going to have a must watch episode list right here. If you're watching the. The physical version, there is a list now. So if you're watching the video version, there's a list right now. If you're watching. If you're listening to the audio version of this, then. Well, I don't know. Email me. Sad. Sad. SA said, get on YouTube. Give us likes. That's about that. Jack, did you have any closing thoughts on Billy and Mandy or. [01:27:49] Speaker C: You know, there's a character in one of the episodes who is a camp counselor, and his name is John Jack Daniels. Torrance. [01:27:58] Speaker A: I have that. [01:27:59] Speaker C: One of the greatest names I've ever heard. [01:28:01] Speaker A: Yes. That is really funny. That's a reference, of course, to the Shining. [01:28:06] Speaker C: But if you want a more serious, like, one more like just kind of, like, point to be made is, like, you mentioned how Billy. Mandy actually cares about Billy sometimes. And I think that's because Billy is so profoundly stupid. He's the only one who's not afraid of her. So even though Mandy really doesn't like him for who he is, I think she likes him just because he's the only one who's gonna be there for her. And that's why she cloned him in the future when she's God Empress. [01:28:32] Speaker A: Yeah, that is. That is a really good point. And that is a really great headcanon. [01:28:36] Speaker C: And I think that's the best way to do wholesome stuff. If you have a lot of darkness in it. People like contrast. That's why people like the Adam stand, because you wouldn't expect them to be nice to each other. So when they are, it's really nice. So it's always nice when Mandy's knife to Billy because it's so rare. And I think that's where a lot of shows fuck up when they want to do, like, dark shit that's also wholesome because they make the whole. They put too much wholesome in it too much. It makes it too saccharine, too sweet. You gotta have a lot of spice to counter that sweetness. That's where Hazbin Hotel up. That's a whole other thing. [01:29:08] Speaker A: I hate Hazbin Hotel. It's so fucking over the top and stupid. [01:29:12] Speaker C: Yeah. Which also took a lot of inspiration from Billy and Mandy and obviously didn't take enough inspiration because if they did, it'd be better. [01:29:17] Speaker A: Well, they did it badly, you know. Erica, are you a fan of has been. Are you, are you sad that we don't like it? [01:29:24] Speaker B: I do like Hazbin Hotel. Eric, if you like the odd one out here. [01:29:30] Speaker D: Okay. [01:29:32] Speaker A: What? [01:29:35] Speaker B: I feel like the odd one out here. [01:29:37] Speaker A: Erica, you're breaking up. Because you love it. [01:29:45] Speaker B: Yes, I do. [01:29:47] Speaker A: Is that a yes? Yeah, yeah, that's okay. [01:29:51] Speaker C: I have no problem with people who like it. I can see why people like it. Like, I, I watched the show when I was decently amused. I just think it's horribly flawed. [01:29:58] Speaker A: Yeah. You're allowed to like it. I think the music's really good on Hazbin, but I like it. [01:30:03] Speaker C: The animation is pretty good too. And it's not like just the overabundance of red. [01:30:07] Speaker A: Dustin likes it. [01:30:08] Speaker D: I, I like it. I really like the pilot. I was, like, happy when I announced. I got, when they announced I got picked up for a full thing. [01:30:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, there you go. All right. [01:30:19] Speaker C: Well, it just goes to show that Billion man, you're still, still making splashes even today. [01:30:25] Speaker A: Those ripples are still going and cities are still being drowned by it, by its tidal wave. Right. Destroy us all. Destroy us all. [01:30:31] Speaker D: Destroy us all. [01:30:33] Speaker A: Same as it always was. Same as it always was. Yeah. I, I, I just want to mention there's the episode where Billy sees everyone in their, their bikes and, like, the one kid is, like, riding his bike. The next kid is, like, jumping all of the campers, like Evel Knievel. The next kid is in the pool with his bike, you know, having a romantic time. The next kid is marrying his bike. It's amazing. So, yeah, I agree. Billy Mandy is very underrated these days. I feel like it's almost been forgotten. To a large degree. It is unique, it is morbid, it is funny, and it's utterly disgusting. It'll ch. I find the show to be very challenging at times because of how aggressively it seems to hate its audience and at the same time, how, as Justin said, it can be very insightful at times. So, yeah, do watch it, do check it out or I don't know. You'll make my cat sad. [01:31:36] Speaker C: You know, Maxwell Adams always said that he wasn't ever trying to make dark humor. He always just made his humor honest, and people just happened to perceive it as dark. And I think that's pretty insightful in itself. [01:31:45] Speaker A: That is very insightful. That is very insightful. Because you know what life is? Life can be pretty harsh. Life can be pretty cruel. And, you know, I think my actual favorite episode is the one with Nurgle where Nurgle really wants a friend. Yes. He comes up from the center of the earth, and he's. He's palling around, and they can't get rid of him. And finally, he asks Grimm because Grim is his equal. He's a. He's a. He's a fellow creature of darkness. You know, he's like, hey, how did you make friends with those two children? And Grimm's like, are you some kind of moron, Mon? Me? I'm not their friend. Me. I'm their slave. And he's like. [01:32:27] Speaker C: Wait, of course. You can't just ask for friends. You have to take them. Everything good in life must be taken. [01:32:34] Speaker A: Yeah. So the episode ends with him touching everyone in the world, everyone he can get his hands on and turn them into beings of darkness who are just cackling and his friends. And that's it. That's the end of the episode. And, yeah, I think that that, while not always true, is frequently true. It's definitely true in the business world. It's definitely true. Like, I don't know if you're going through a lawsuit or something. You know what I mean? Like, it's true. If you're trying to get your art out there, you've gotta take it, you know? So. I don't know. I love Billy and Mandy, and I think it's super cool. And, I don't know. Toast to Maxwell Adams. A demon toasted Maxwell Adams because he's cool and I like him. Come on the show. Or don't. Yeah. So my cup was empty, by the way. So, yeah. Trying to think, how do I usually end these? It's been like a month since we did this, so. Right. So, yeah, thanks for. Thank you for watching. All right. If you've listened to this whole fucking thing, do give us a. Like, leave a review if you can. You know, it's in your best interest because you'll make us happy. Follow us on Instagram, even Toast podcast at. Death Wish Poetry is our other one. I, of course, write fantasy novels and edit Death Wish Poetry magazine. Check us out. We publish quarter we publish quarterly editions and have a physical edition coming soon. You can find my [email protected] follow me on Instagram. Ingloki links are down below. So special shout out to our social media sorceress Ashley over at Tucson Media. Do check them out if you need advertising services. Jack, do you have anything to plug? [01:34:32] Speaker C: Just my Instagram. You can check that out, which is. I should have it memorized. It's jackbrennonauthor. No, no, it's Jack Brennan, underscore writer. [01:34:46] Speaker A: Yeah, Jack, in addition to being one of my assistant editors, he helped me out with the spring edition, which is fantastic. I mean, you know it. You know, any little bit of help that we get is fantastic. And Jack is. Jack is very clever. He's a very good writer. He writes erotica, he writes horror, and he writes the occasional poem too, believe it or not. You know, he, he likes, I mean. Jack, do you want to talk about your writing? [01:35:12] Speaker C: I feel like we should say that for like a different episode. But you know, I'm excited for the two stories. [01:35:17] Speaker A: I'm just talking about you and you. [01:35:18] Speaker C: Know, you know, I mean, yeah, check out my two stories that are coming out for the spring edition. They were both made specifically for Death Wish, which is why I call it the Death Wish Duology. Some of my favorite things I've ever written so far. So definitely check those out. Song of Sodom and Bloody Mary. [01:35:34] Speaker A: Very good stories. Both have a biblical theme. So if that's your jam, I mean, you know, Jack's your man. Erica, you want to plug your Instagram. [01:35:42] Speaker B: Or anything else, my name is Eros Fatalis. My writing account is now Monstrum Exemplum. So definitely go and check that out if you want to read cringy, infrequently uploaded poetry. [01:35:59] Speaker A: Cool. Justin, did you want to. [01:36:03] Speaker D: I don't exist on social media. Don't try to find me. I am a pharmacist, but I don't have a front facing job. If you show up at my work, I'm not gonna know you. [01:36:13] Speaker A: Yeah, if you show up at Justin's work, you're gonna have to deal with me because this is my boyfriend. So that's about that. [01:36:19] Speaker C: So a pharmacist is just a really nice drug dealer. True. [01:36:26] Speaker A: Alright, on that note, love your demons. Write art, make poetry. Ave fucking Satanist. Alright, I will stop the recording.